China's Education system compared to the USA

latenlazy said:

...Sorry, but as someone who has both studied in China, and someone who has talked to people who teach in China, this phenomena is for real. That's not to say everyone in a Chinese secondary institution exhibits this tendency, but to my knowledge and experience it is far more prominent in China than the US. Like vesicles said, it's not that they're not capable of creative thinking, but instead are not trained to recognize, develop, and utilize creative thinking processes.

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Not to belittle your personal experience, but has these same educators who bemoan the lack of creativity asked the question: "what are the rewards of creativity?"

Like I said before, all creative initiatives are inherently risky. So if the system does not institute any rewards for being creative, why should the students take that risk?

I also do not believe that creativity can be "stifled". It is no more credible than the idea that intelligence can be "dumbed down". People simply express their creativity in other, safer, situations, such as hobbies.

solarz said:

Not necessarily. Chinese university students are often amazingly creative... at cheating on their exams.

Perhaps a more accurate description would be that the Chinese education system does not adequately channel the creativity of its students. That is different from the idea that the student's creativity is "stifled", as those same students that you describe as "uncreative" would amaze you with their creativity if you put them in an environment where they can feel safe and self-confident.

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Of course, when ensured safety, everyone can be creative. Everyone of us day-dreams about stuff without much fear. However, it is what you do when facing actual fear of being punished that actually counts. We often hear stories about how pioneers holding their ideas firm when challenged by authority while others simply giving it up even at the thought of being challenged.

solarz said:

Not to belittle your personal experience, but has these same educators who bemoan the lack of creativity asked the question: "what are the rewards of creativity?"

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Yes...in fact my cousin the linguist professor is actively trying to change the way in which kids are taught, in particular language, but also more broadly in other subjects. He's trying to demonstrate the rewards of creative thinking. For example, kids in China learn English from kindergarten to college, but relatively few make it passed the basic 6th grade level because too much value is placed into learning the grammar mechanics and not enough is put into reading comprehension, critical thinking of the material, and creative writing. In this case, the rewards for non-linear thinking is critical for greater language acquisition. However, a system that's geared towards one kind of tutelage makes adopting new methods somewhat difficult.

Like I said before, all creative initiatives are inherently risky. So if the system does not institute any rewards for being creative, why should the students take that risk?

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Of course, but that is the problem isn't it? At some point, if you're not taught how to develop and process creative thinking, you won't be able to use or recognize it even when it becomes advantageous. Useful thinking isn't sui generis to individuals, but is taught to us.

I also do not believe that creativity can be "stifled". It is no more credible than the idea that intelligence can be "dumbed down". People simply express their creativity in other, safer, situations, such as hobbies.

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Well, whether you believe it or not...cognitively skills we don't use atrophy. They don't disappear per say, but they end up underutilized and underdeveloped. Never underestimate the effects of educational institutions in shaping the ways in which people think. If you've grown up being trained to think in one way, that's the way you're going to think unless taught to think otherwise.

Also, you might want to be careful in discussing what "intelligence" is and how it's determined. It's a controversial topic in academia, and some significant work has been put into demonstrating how it's often defined in a social context as opposed to being a measure of innate cognitive ability (and this is the most I will say on this subject, the thing gets tricky relatively quickly).

solarz said:

Not to belittle your personal experience, but has these same educators who bemoan the lack of creativity asked the question: "what are the rewards of creativity?"

Like I said before, all creative initiatives are inherently risky. So if the system does not institute any rewards for being creative, why should the students take that risk?

I also do not believe that creativity can be "stifled". It is no more credible than the idea that intelligence can be "dumbed down". People simply express their creativity in other, safer, situations, such as hobbies.

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It sounds like you are agreeing with me. If creative initiatives are not rewarded, then there is something wrong with the system??

I think creativity can be stifled. If someone has to channel their creativity to hobbies, I would say their creativity is definitely stifled. If someone's brilliant ideas that could potentially change the world cannot be carried out, then it's been stifled...

this makes me think.. A bunch of elementary school students in London studied bees and actually published their work in a prominent biology journal (not the best with an impact factor of 3.7, but it is still a high-impact journal that most professional scientists would like to publish as any journal with an impact factor at/above 3.5 is considered as high impact).



As you can see, instead of attempting to make the study look elegant, the teacher decided to let the students design the experiments, carry out the study and write the paper on their own and only provided advise and corrected grammar errors (of course, the teacher wrote the abstract). So the whole paper does not sound professional at all and reads like an elementary school project. this is how it is supposed to be done, in terms of training students to be creative.

I can imagine how a similar thing could be done in China. In order to make things look nice, teachers might end up doing most of the work. On top of that, the study might not be published at all and might even be laughed at. Fear of failure is a big reason for "stifled" creativity.

vesicles said:

this makes me think.. A bunch of elementary school students in London studied bees and actually published their work in a prominent biology journal.

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As you can see, instead of attempting to make the study look elegant, the teacher decided to let the students design the experiments, carry out the study and write the paper on their own and only provided advise and corrected grammar errors. So the whole paper does not sound professional at all and reads like an elementary school project. this is how it is supposed to be done, in terms of training students to be creative.

I can imagine how a similar thing could be done in China. In order to make things look nice, teachers might end up doing most of the work. On top of that, the study might not be published at all and might even be laughed at. Fear of failure is a big reason for "stifled" creativity.

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Good luck convincing parents in China that this will help their kids succeed . The linear learning test taking mentality is a tough one to break culturally.

But yes, that would be one way to incorporate creative thinking into the education system. Another way would be to encourage critical thinking, asking questions and arguing for and against ideas. However, I sometimes wonder if that type of teaching style is politically sensitive on the mainland...

latenlazy said:

Good luck convincing parents in China that this will help their kids succeed . The linear learning test taking mentality is a tough one to break culturally.

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that's the sad part. Chinese parents in the States still maintain the same habit and want the same thing for their kids.

the things is most student in china just want to take a short cuts, that often mean cheat/copy. i guess when everyone is doing it, if you are not doing it, you will lift behind. also in a society where intellectual property are not enforced well, even those who create something new will be copied instantly.

vesicles said:

that's the sad part. Chinese parents in the States still maintain the same habit and want the same thing for their kids.

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I recently had to point this out to my parents, who have raised me and my sister in a mixed sense. They can be pretty hands off, but they still get frustrated when my sister doesn't listen to direct commands. Kids raised in the US are taught that every order needs to be backed by a reason, as in school. XD

s002wjh said:

the things is most student in china just want to take a short cuts, that often mean cheat/copy. also in a society where intellectual property are not enforced well, even those who create something new will be copied instantly.

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That is probably a effect of an emphasis on achieving testing results, as opposed to being able to demonstrate independent thinking.

vesicles said:

It sounds like you are agreeing with me. If creative initiatives are not rewarded, then there is something wrong with the system??

I think creativity can be stifled. If someone has to channel their creativity to hobbies, I would say their creativity is definitely stifled. If someone's brilliant ideas that could potentially change the world cannot be carried out, then it's been stifled...

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Ehh... I don't think my creativity is being stifled when I channel it in my hobbies. I also have a bunch of ideas for improving society in general, but it's never going to be carried out because I don't have the resource to do so, nor the inclination to convince enough people to do it with me. That doesn't mean my creativity has been stifled.

I agree that a good system should reward creativity just as it rewards hard work. However, what I am objecting to is the idea that the Chinese education system is responsible for Chinese students not being creative in the work place. The Chinese education system is a product of Chinese culture, and the same system that does not reward creativity in school isn't going to reward it in the work place either!

I wonder how many of those companies in China who bemoan the lack of creativity took a good look at their organization and see if their company structure is set up to allow the kind of creativity that they say they would like to see.