China's Education system compared to the USA
- Thread starter Red___Sword
- Start date
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Well, the actual problem is probably in the rewards system, in the sense of what China rewards in its education. This primarily shows up in emphasis on testing results as opposed to critical thinking and argumentation, and process work.
vesicles
Colonel
There is a difference between researchers and researchers. Most of the technicians in labs are Chinese as well. Most of them can get work done beautifully. However, when it comes to creative thinking, they become a little stagnant. I think this is caused by the filtering effect of Chinese education system. Most of the creative people don't care too much about the boring education system in China and that makes them unable to compete with those who diligently obey orders and study hard for everything thrown their way. Not that there is anything wrong with studying hard. We need people like that to do work. In fact, there is a saying in the States about resumes that you shouldn't put your GPA on your CV if it is higher than 3.8/3.9 if you don't want to be stuck with boring work that nobody wants to do. With a insanely high GPA, you are automatically thought as the kind of person who don't mind doing boring work. Since no one else wants to do it, you are stuck with it. However, when it comes to creative and critical thinking, this kind of personality does not fit the bill.
Like I said in my last post, I've had classmate/labmates who have been educated in China. from what I can tell, they depend a lot more on their advisers in terms of getting ideas for their research projects. Postdocs/grad students should own their projects, which means we should carry the projects on our own and advisers should be only on the side and provide help when needed. A lot of times, my Chinese-educated colleagues go in to adviser's office and present the work they have done in the past week and then wait for orders about what to do next. That's why I said in the past post that some of them actually feel that they are like technicians. Yes, if you simply look at publications, most of the papers published in the States have Chinese authors, suggesting that most of the research have Chinese involvement. However, this can be misleading since no one knows how much of the original ideas of the research actually comes from each of the authors. Theoretically, the first author should be the one that has the most scientific and creative contribution to the study. However, most of the time, people simply give the 1st authorship to the person who does most of the bench work.
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vesicles
Colonel
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Those schools still need an insanely high overall score from all subjects to get in.
Those schools still need an insanely high overall score from all subjects to get in.
vesicles
Colonel
This actually brings up another topic, glass ceiling. It is well known that there is a glass ceiling for Chinese in the States. You don't see a lot of Chinese in executive positions in companies and universities in the US. So everyone automatically blame the potential discrimination against Chinese. I don't deny that at all. Let's face it, the American society is still a Caucasian-dominated one and all colored people face discrimination to some degree. However, there is another side of the story. Most of my Chinese friends and those I know in the States don't care so much about becoming an executive. When I asked them about becoming a manager, they simply say it's too much hassle and they simply want the easy way, which is to do work as told and be done with it. At the company where my wife works, one of her Chinese colleagues actually denied promotions to managerial positions TWICE! And then he would complain about all those who used be under him now become his superior...
Why is this happening? I think this also has something to do with the Chinese education system. As I have said many times, the people who would thrive in this kind of system have the kind of personality that likes to follow orders. Even for those who don't like following orders, they have to change their personality and be molded to become an obedient order-follower by the Chinese education system. It is these people who actually be able to come to the States since most of them have to PASS TESTS and get admitted to universities to come to the States. When they start working, they still feel comfortable in a position where they can simply follow orders and be told what to do.
Again, the same thing happens throughout history in China. Most of the people in commanding positions in Chinese history had been uneducated people. Most of those who got extensive education prefer to stay in a position to follow orders.
Simply put? Chinese education system is at fault.
Why is this happening? I think this also has something to do with the Chinese education system. As I have said many times, the people who would thrive in this kind of system have the kind of personality that likes to follow orders. Even for those who don't like following orders, they have to change their personality and be molded to become an obedient order-follower by the Chinese education system. It is these people who actually be able to come to the States since most of them have to PASS TESTS and get admitted to universities to come to the States. When they start working, they still feel comfortable in a position where they can simply follow orders and be told what to do.
Again, the same thing happens throughout history in China. Most of the people in commanding positions in Chinese history had been uneducated people. Most of those who got extensive education prefer to stay in a position to follow orders.
Simply put? Chinese education system is at fault.
solarz
Brigadier
I think this effect, while certainly present, has been exaggerated. Spend a week in China and you will be amazed at how creative the Chinese are... at making money!
I think what's really happening is a perception of risk and the feeling of being in a foreign country/culture.
Any kind of creative initiative will always carry a certain risk, even if it's as benign as being rejected by one's superior (and thus resulting in a loss of face in Chinese thinking). Chinese employees who did not grow up in the Western culture (and even a good number of those who did) tend to be more risk-averse in the work place. That, more than anything else, is what I believe leads to this perception of "lack of creativity".
vesicles said:
Perhaps it's not so much that they can't get ideas on their own, as they are trying to find out what kind of ideas would please their advisers? Or perhaps they think ideas given to them by their advisers are simply "better" for their resume than what they come up with on their own.
My dad was in a manager role in Schering-Plough before it got acquired by Merck. With the merger, he got transferred to the R&D department as a senior scientist. He tells me that it's much easier working as a scientist than as a manager, and it's not because he's more at ease following orders. Indeed, the very reason that he came to North America is because he felt that he is unable to advance in a Chinese workplace.
The real issue at hand is simply language. Whenever my dad would ask a subordinate about why a job was done poorly, they would have a dozen perfectly "reasonable" explanations all argued more eloquently than my dad could ever manage to respond to. So it all ends up being more of a hassle than it's worth.
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vesicles
Colonel
Yet, but not many of these people are in the States. And if you look at the background of these people, most of the creative people that you talk about in China are not that well educated at all. Some of them barely finished grade school. Like I said in my previous post, this happening throughout Chinese history. Most of the people in commanding positions have not been educated. The chinese education system for 2000 years has been discouraging creativity.
Note that I am NOT saying all Chinese are not creative. I am saying that the Chinese education system filters out creative people and does not allow them to thrive.
that's exactly my point. Everyone can have original idea once in a while. While someone simply forget about the flashes of brilliance and go back to following orders, others would dare to challenge the authority and actually dare to put their ideas into action. It is these people who are seen as creative. It is the exact thought as you pointed out that have been drilled into most of the Chinese students' mind and cause them to be less creative.
Of course, being creative can be very hazardous. It means challenging the authority and making a lot of people angry. These people, of course, including those of your superiors. the Chinese education system punishes this kind of acts severely. I remember once when I was in grad school, I found this interesting phenomenon that, if confirmed, would prove my adviser's theory wrong. One of my labmates who came from China told me not to pursue it since this could potentially anger our adviser. He told me to simply continue with my original project. I thought about it and still decided to pursue that interesting finding. Of course, my adviser was not happy about being proven wrong. However, I have been branded as a creative researcher by my adviser. It is the courage to challenge the authority that makes a person creative and the Chinese education system punishes this kind of courage.
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...Sorry, but as someone who has both studied in China, and someone who has talked to people who teach in China, this phenomena is for real. That's not to say everyone in a Chinese secondary institution exhibits this tendency, but to my knowledge and experience it is far more prominent in China than the US. Like vesicles said, it's not that they're not capable of creative thinking, but instead are not trained to recognize, develop, and utilize creative thinking processes.
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solarz
Brigadier
Not necessarily. Chinese university students are often amazingly creative... at cheating on their exams.
Perhaps a more accurate description would be that the Chinese education system does not adequately channel the creativity of its students. That is different from the idea that the student's creativity is "stifled", as those same students that you describe as "uncreative" would amaze you with their creativity if you put them in an environment where they can feel safe and self-confident.
Well, that kind of creativity is very...technical...and honestly not very hard. Besides, cheating of the sort is only really effective for multiple choice, mathematical problems, and short answers. Cheating on writing...is very difficult, and impractical in a test, and practically impossible on a project.
The real challenge is abstract and constructive creativity, which is usually what's needed for success at the graduate and postgraduate levels. The Chinese education system is simply not very conducive to that.
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