China's Education system compared to the USA

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out

Family values and society also plays a big part. In China, competition is much fiercer, and typically a much greater emphasis is put on language and literature in general education than in North America. Chinese families also tend to push their children a lot more strictly on education than other American or Canadian families.

I recall you once saying that the differences was less marked when at uni. Or something like that.
 

CottageLV

Banned Idiot
Education in all oriental cultures are kind of messed up. It is indeed true that oriental (South Korea, Japan and other Chinese influenced cultures) students can achieve insanely high scores on examinations, but in real life they can't get anything done. They are simply trained into exam machines. We can already see the after effects to this problem. There are tens of millions of university graduates each year in China, which is an astounding number to look at. However, there's also a huge shortage of skilled workers (academically educated), forcing companies to retrain those kids from scratch.
I personally experienced this first hand. I have seen a lot of students from China (including South Korea, Japan, etc) that are saints at doing exams. But when comes to laboratory sessions, a lot of them struggle. In real life, we need abilities similar to laboratory skills, not exam skills to innovate and progress.
So to put it a little bluntly, those countries are really wasting money and not educating the kids properly.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Education in all oriental cultures are kind of messed up. It is indeed true that oriental (South Korea, Japan and other Chinese influenced cultures) students can achieve insanely high scores on examinations, but in real life they can't get anything done. They are simply trained into exam machines. We can already see the after effects to this problem. There are tens of millions of university graduates each year in China, which is an astounding number to look at. However, there's also a huge shortage of skilled workers (academically educated), forcing companies to retrain those kids from scratch.
I personally experienced this first hand. I have seen a lot of students from China (including South Korea, Japan, etc) that are saints at doing exams. But when comes to laboratory sessions, a lot of them struggle. In real life, we need abilities similar to laboratory skills, not exam skills to innovate and progress.
So to put it a little bluntly, those countries are really wasting money and not educating the kids properly.

LOL, so explain why my dad's R&D department in Merck is almost exclusively Chinese?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
@ Cottage

That is a silly position to take and fails to consider so many obvious factors.

One of the main reasons Oriental students do not thrive in the west is because of the massive cultural difference, and not education. When my father worked at a university in the UK, he was always able to get the best out of Chinese students, and those students tend to be far better than their western counterparts, not that there are many western counterparts that is.

It is folly to expect people brought up and taught in a completely different culture and manner to be able to take to the kind of jobs and roles that are designed for natives. It is as unreasonable to expect an Oriental person to get off a plane and fit right in in the west as it is for a westerner to do so in places like China, Japan or South Korea.

Funnily enough, there is a new term that is fast becoming common in finance circles. FISHTAIL, which stands for Failed In Shang Hai Trying Again In London. These are the young hotheads who went over to China expecting to take China by the scruff of the neck and own the Chinese economic miracle. Needless to say, most of the people who went over with that attitude and mindset did not do so well, and have started to move back to London to try and get their old jobs back.

The main reason that western firms are investing so much to train local Chinese people to perform roles they would have sent ex-pats to do in years past is because they are realizing that it is easier and cheaper to train locals to do the job right than to teach westerners who already can do the job how to do it in Asia. And guess what, their businesses are benefiting from the change.

You are also in for a big surprise if you think western educated students are ready to hop into work straight out of campus with no need for further education. Even in highly specialized fields like law, firms still invest huge amounts of time and money to train their staff to do their work.

There are very few exceptions where what you learn at university will be useful for you in your working life outside of pure academia.

China's education system does have its flaws. The biggest that I can see is the poor transition between high school and university.

In high school, there is so much competition and pressure to get an amazing mark to get into a good uni that students are forced to work insanely hard, and teachers pretty much spoonfeed the students to make sure they get the best possible mark as their bonuses depend on the marks their students get.

But once you get into Uni, the lectures in China behave largely like their western counterparts, meaning there is no-one there to spoon feed the students or to jump on their backs to make sure they do all their homework.

For most students, the habits of doing so much work learnt up to high school keep them working hard. But for a significant minority, they just struggle to adapt and end up doing too little work and drop out.

That is far from an uniquely oriental problem, as many high-flyers in western countries who achieve that because of parental pressure also 'rebel' like that when they are at uni, and you can usually tell which students are there only because it is what their parents decided, and they tend to not do so great unfortunately.

The broad nature and lack of specialization in Chinese primary and secondary education is less clear-cut. Choice is a double edged sword, and can be extremely harmful if the person making the choice does so for the wrong reasons. Given the choice, I don't think any children would want to brush their teeth. Would you ever allow your child to take that choice?

I have seen many of my old high school friends from the UK under-achieve badly and end up in dead-end no-hope jobs that they will probably keep for the rest of their lives, and these were smart, capable kids who are in this position today because they chose their subjects at high-school not based on what the good universities and courses wanted, but on which are the easiest subjects and the timetable the classes are scheduled. So they can have an early finish or late start on certain days.

That is the kind of stupid decisions children make, that is why we do not allow children to enter into legally binding contracts or hold them to the same standards of culpability if they commit a crime. Why should be intrust their futures to them at such a tender age, before they really know what they want or how these choices would affect them in the long-term?

Another thing I will say in favor of a broad approach is, how will you know what you really like if you have not tried different things out?

In the west, you are seeing fewer and fewer students taking up 'mathy' subjects and careers, and that is mainly down to choice. We all know that it is hard work learning your times tables and periodic tables, that it is no fun doing endless sums to hone your skills, and that os why kids are not choosing them. But you will not experience the true job of subjects like math or science until you have mastered the basics and move on to the more interesting aspects.

If you ask the world's great musicians, engineers and academics whether they loved the subject they are doing now when they were children, and 9 times out of 10, they would not only say they didn't like it, but that they hated it. Until that one magical moment when the scales lifted from their eyes and changed their lives forever.

I may not remember everything I learnt in all those different classes in middle school in China today, but they did open my eyes to what is out their, and for the subjects that did truly interest me, those early foundations have proved invaluable.

There is much to be admired about how western secondary education prepares a student for university life and helps them to develop independently and confidently (interestingly enough, while American students rarely rank top in international competitions, they always rank top when asked how well they felt they did, some might laugh, but confidence and self-believe is an extremely powerful and useful trait, and all too many oriental students seem to be too lacking in that department). However, there is something terribly amiss with the American education system.

If you have not seen 'Waiting for Superman', then I strongly urge you to see it. It is an extremely well made documentary about the modern American education system. What impressed me most about the film is that there does not seem to be any political motive, any axe to grind by the makers. They only cared about finding out what is wrong with America's education system and how to fix it. It is a very eye-opening, powerful and genuine story, and it is hard not to be moved by it.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Education in all oriental cultures are kind of messed up. It is indeed true that oriental (South Korea, Japan and other Chinese influenced cultures) students can achieve insanely high scores on examinations, but in real life they can't get anything done. They are simply trained into exam machines. We can already see the after effects to this problem. There are tens of millions of university graduates each year in China, which is an astounding number to look at. However, there's also a huge shortage of skilled workers (academically educated), forcing companies to retrain those kids from scratch.
I personally experienced this first hand. I have seen a lot of students from China (including South Korea, Japan, etc) that are saints at doing exams. But when comes to laboratory sessions, a lot of them struggle. In real life, we need abilities similar to laboratory skills, not exam skills to innovate and progress.
So to put it a little bluntly, those countries are really wasting money and not educating the kids properly.

How do you explain Asian American students then? or ethnic chinese/japanese/korean students in any country for that matter...they do extremely well academically as well but obviously having grown up and gone to school here like anyone else would also have the benefit of practicality.
If your theory is true than asian american students wouldn't stand out academically compared to others. In fact they would probably lack behind whites since generally speaking minority students fair worse than their white counterparts in academics but that isn't the case. I think most would also argue when you say Japanese/Japan lack innovation and progress.
If you ask me I think it has more to do with family prioritization than a particular country's educational system. Asian families tend to focus more on their kids' education regardless of what country they grow up in.
BTW I think your post in which you painted with a very broad brush probably just offended half of our esteem SDF friends here ;)
 
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Red___Sword

Junior Member
wolf, you damn should run for President!

Be it a university or an Oceanian state, not sure you can run for the US of A though. (It is STILL a compliment)

Well, we accidently have had us a new arena, that no doubt wisdom would shine, but it is still an arena - look at the thread title.

I don't think these schools are any good in terms of building your credentials. You may be able to find a job, but it's not going to get you into grad/med school or anything. And no one will care about those technology degrees, no matter where you are, China or the US.

I personally find it funny enough (no bash here), that when Chinese people, after many years of social practice realizing that outputs millions of undergruduates every year, when 实业 (I don't have good terms - "1st and 2nd industry") is in desperate needs of capable tech personnels, is not the way out. - The successful country like US, are ALSO having this social view of look down upon tech persons.

A veteran technician who achieved "Senior Technician" natioanl certification, earns as many as the general manager of the same corporate, runs the "value-adding-corp"(the production department) like masterchiefs runs the USMC (heard it from popeye somewhere); The capable technicians across all "ranks" (different levels of recognition) recieves all kinds of "perks" ranging from freely screw their "ranking officer" (manager) to proudly deliver lectures to (even) Senior Engineers. - That's China Today (no, not a newspaper)

Frankly, the whole world had too many graduates and too few tech people, no matter what education system. China nowadays trying to rectify this, and more and more middle school kids realizing the alternative way in front of more and more expensive college.

Oh, and Chinese technicians also can find USA at the map.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
china's elementary-high school has its advantage, they learn alot facts/mathematics, but the higher education in china can't compete with western universities. college student often copy each others test, homework, and lab result. even alot professor copy others research to get their jobs done. vs west who has better lab, internship, hand-on stuff. most chinese company won't even hire a college grad because none of them has any experence/knowledge in real world problem solving. given the chance, most chinese prefer send their kids to west for higher education
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out

Not to sound like it's a conspiracy theory; the poor education in world history (including geography) that most Americans get conveniently allow the US elite to either put on a pedestal or demonize any country/culture/society/government and easily sell the message to its own people.

Funny you say that...my current seminar is making the point that the US puts more money into public education (especially secondary education) than any other industrialized country.

Does give high school political science insight into the question: how could politics in Washington DC become so dysfunctional? What else does it provide?

Yes...actually. If people actually paid attention in class.

china's elementary-high school has its advantage, they learn alot facts/mathematics, but the higher education in china can't compete with western universities. college student often copy each others test, homework, and lab result. even alot professor copy others research to get their jobs done. vs west who has better lab, internship, hand-on stuff. most chinese company won't even hire a college grad because none of them has any experence/knowledge in real world problem solving. given the chance, most chinese prefer send their kids to west for higher education

My cousin, a professor of linguistics in Beijing, laments this fact whenever we talk about the Chinese education system. It's also been noted by my professors in Fudan (some have made an attempt to change this).
 
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s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out

My cousin, a professor of linguistics in Beijing, laments this fact whenever we talk about the Chinese education system. It's also been noted by my professors in Fudan (some have made an attempt to change this).

there are people in china who try to do their own work and have decent ethnic not to copy others work, but there just alot more people in china that will take the shortcut by, cheating/copy/. this condition overall make the others who try to do the right things shift their ways of doing things, in a bad way. education in china should include some ethnic/moral class in china and appropriate punishment for those who cheat/copy. university staff and students should do more so company who hire those kids after they graduate has faith in their knoweldge/experenice.
 
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out

I don't think these schools are any good in terms of building your credentials. You may be able to find a job, but it's not going to get you into grad/med school or anything. And no one will care about those technology degrees, no matter where you are, China or the US.

I'm not talking about technical schools, I am talking about universities that specialize in science and engineering, i.e. like Harbin Institute of Technology and University of Science and Technology in China, which are both C9 schools. These are akin to MIT and Caltech.
 
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