china/taiwan news

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tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
it is not irrational sensitivity Taiwan is like corkscrew that bottle up China effort to achieve greatness. With Taiwan gone Japan position will be weaken. With Japan neutralized any effort to contain China will be in vain. Korea will also be neutralized
Right now the geography of China lend itself to be contained

I actually think the opposite is true. China's geography enables it to dominate the world more firmly than US can ever do. US is isolated from the heartland of the world that is Eurasia. China is surrounded by many big population centers of the world such as South East Asia, South Asia and even the middle east. This means the distance Chinese planes, troops and economic influence must travel is small.

Japan and Korea are so close to China that Chinese air force can easily fight them. China does not even need a big navy to dominate them. Same thing with South East Asia, South Asia and Central Asia. These are very close. It might seem China is bottled up by These big powers close by, but that's only because China is poor and weak. Its just 10K in GDP per Capita vs japan in 40K. When China reaches Japan level of Wealth, all the countries around its periphery will be firmly tied to its economy. All the countries around its periphery will be firmly in the range of Chinese air force.

Sure they will resist at first. Just like Latin America did. But slowly but surely, China will start to flip more countries to accept Chinese domination of Asia. This might happen in 1 century. And if you dominate Asia, you don't need to trot the globe because Eurasia is the main world landmass. Chinese influence over its periphery will be more enduring, more widespread because of the short distance. Chinese grip on Asia will be much more stronger than US grip on Latin America.

China's faces a more challenging neighbourhood, but once they overcome this challenge, their reward will be that much more long lasting and easy.
 

Orthan

Senior Member
What a cheap shot. Shows you up for what you are. You know very well Taiwan is a subject close to every Chinese's heart. The bloodshed and tears China and Chinese people have to endure from foreigners like yourself over the centuries is immeasurable. Till this day our land is still not united is because of people like you.

Furthermore, let's say if I say something against your countries interest like taking the canary islands and give it to morroco. I think you too would be sensitive.

So please Mr insensitive. Spare us your mocking! It does not become you

I never intended to offend the chinese people. It is well know the agressions, humilitations and exploitation that china suffered in the XIX and XX centuries.

However, thats in the past now. Its was the world from a century ago. You shouldnt hide in that past in order to justify the faillings of china today. And the undisputable fact is that no matter its achievements of the last 40 years (and forgeting what happened in the 30 years prior to that), china is still a semi-capitalist single-party dictatorship while taiwan is a capitalist multi-party democracy. It is understandable that they dont want to join the PRC. Why would they do that?

By now they should convert their economy to war economy Put 20% of GDP to produce war material there is no more technological bottle neck to speak

And go the way of the USSR ? The chinese leadership learned from them not to do that.
 

BrightFuture

New Member
Registered Member
But it seems that some people in this forum are very sensitive.:oops:

Si realmente eres portugués, entonces podrás entender perfectamente este comentario aunque esté escrito en español.

Dicho esto, no deberías sentirte orgulloso del imperialismo portugués, no es cuestión de sensibilidad, es cuestión de decencia.

Sobre el nombre de la isla, da igual que un blanco imperialista portugués la llamara Formosa, la isla ya tenía un nombre antes de esto, punto y final.

Las otras idioteces que dices en tu post ni las comento. Aprende un poco sobre China y la situación actual del mundo, retrasado.

Edit: if this idiot is really Portuguese he will understand this
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I actually think the opposite is true. China's geography enables it to dominate the world more firmly than US can ever do. US is isolated from the heartland of the world that is Eurasia. China is surrounded by many big population centers of the world such as South East Asia, South Asia and even the middle east. This means the distance Chinese planes, troops and economic influence must travel is small.

Japan and Korea are so close to China that Chinese air force can easily fight them. China does not even need a big navy to dominate them. Same thing with South East Asia, South Asia and Central Asia. These are very close. It might seem China is bottled up by These big powers close by, but that's only because China is poor and weak. Its just 10K in GDP per Capita vs japan in 40K. When China reaches Japan level of Wealth, all the countries around its periphery will be firmly tied to its economy. All the countries around its periphery will be firmly in the range of Chinese air force.

Sure they will resist at first. Just like Latin America did. But slowly but surely, China will start to flip more countries to accept Chinese domination of Asia. This might happen in 1 century. And if you dominate Asia, you don't need to trot the globe because Eurasia is the main world landmass. Chinese influence over its periphery will be more enduring, more widespread because of the short distance. Chinese grip on Asia will be much more stronger than US grip on Latin America.

China's faces a more challenging neighbourhood, but once they overcome this challenge, their reward will be that much more long lasting and easy.

Nope Chinese access to west pacific is limited through few narrows strait that can be blocked by either position Submarine in those straits or mined them. Any surface ships that try to muscle it thru the straits will be targeted by anti ships missile from island close to those straits. Japan controlled most of those island from Miyako all the way to Ogashiwara. Chinese marine need to land on those island and eliminate any non friendly forces That is why I think the reason for those sudden expansion of LHD

For those effort you need large marine sofar Chinese marine only numbered 20,000 with 2nd hand equipment They have plan to increase it to 100,000 but that is decade long effort. Sofar all the exercise is limited to batallion strength they haven't even exercise in corp strength. The marine lack helicopter, landing ships, first class armor and missiles. Japan start putting missile on those island and form marine division to defend those island It will be formidable force for China to overcome it unless they take it seriously
Yup again I don't know what are they thinking.

And the enemy know that and so do PLAN that is why they exercise to pass those straits. Here excerpt from Andrew Erickson reading

Patterns of Chinese Naval Penetrations

After decades of hugging Chinese shorelines as a coastal-defense force, it only makes sense for the PLAN to practice the tactics, techniques and procedures needed to engage farther away from the Chinese seas in wartime. In light of Asia’s cramped maritime geography, it comes as little shock that Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) units routinely discover PLAN units cruising near Japanese islands. As of this writing, PLAN warships have entered and exited the East China Sea through Japanese-held narrow seas on at least six occasions since 2004. Three incidents were particularly noteworthy.

Tsugaru Strait – In October 2008, a surface action group led by a Sovremennyy-class destroyer steamed through the Tsugaru Strait (marking the first time PLAN units had essayed such a transit), circumnavigated Japan, and circled back to port by way of the international strait between Okinawa and the Miyako Islands (Asia Times, April 22).

Okinotorishima – In June 2009, a Chinese flotilla centered on a Luzhou-class guided-missile destroyer—a vessel armed with an advanced air defense system—voyaged to waters near Okinotorishima through the same maritime gateway (Asia Times, April 22).

Miyako Strait – In April 2010, the JMSDF destroyers Choukai and Suzunami unexpectedly encountered eight PLAN warships and two submarines in international waters southwest of Okinawa, near the Ryukyus. The Chinese squadron transited the Miyako Strait—evidently Chinese commanders’ passage of choice—before turning south toward Okinotorishima. The Japanese government lodged a diplomatic protest with Beijing, to little avail [1].

Though modest in scale compared to U.S. naval operations, these expeditions demonstrate the PLAN’s capacity to operate east of the Japanese archipelago while testifying to its growing reach in the Western Pacific. Recent Sino-Japanese encounters offer a foretaste of East Asia’s nautical future.

Unsurprisingly, China’s naval activities sounded alarms within the defense community in Tokyo. In its annual white papers, Japan’s Ministry of Defense has reported with increasing granularity on the character of PLA operations in or near Japanese waters. The 2009 issue for the first time included charts depicting the courses taken by China’s flotillas. The graphics revealed the patterns of Chinese naval penetrations through the southern Ryukyu chain [2]. According to the National Institute for Defense Studies (NIDS), the Defense Ministry’s internal think-tank, “Given the noticeably greater amount of activity by Chinese naval vessels in the Pacific in recent years, it seems undeniable that China is envisaging operations between the so-called ‘first island chain’ (connecting the Ryukyu Islands, Taiwan and the Philippines) and the ‘second island chain’ (connecting the Bonin Islands and Guam)” [3]. The NIDS researchers are onto something. The Japanese archipelago constitutes not only the northern segment of the first island chain but also the northern terminus of the second island chain, which meanders southward from northern Japan to Papua New Guinea. As PLA forces start operating between the inner and outer island chains, consequently, it will be increasingly commonplace for them to pass through Japanese-held straits and passages and cruise along Japan’s eastern maritime frontier.

Here is how they planned to bottle up Chinese navy inside first island

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Inside forces: Below the level of armed conflict, inside forces forward postured in the Western Pacific would provide a persistent, combat credible signal of U.S. commitment, which should give Chinese leaders pause by complicating their decision calculus and undermining their confidence in their military plans. In the event of conflict, they would exploit the region’s maritime geography and assume a dispersed, resilient posture along the First Island Chain to form an initial defensive barrier that could immediately challenge Chinese military operations and play three key roles. First, they would contest what Chinese doctrine has
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as necessary prerequisites for conducting a successful military campaign: air superiority, sea control, and information dominance. Second, they would attack Chinese power projection forces to delay and deny their ability to achieve objectives through aggression, such as seizing the territory of U.S. allies or partners, while blocking China from projecting power beyond the First Island Chain. Third, they would degrade key Chinese systems to create gaps in China’s A2/AD networks that outside forces could then exploit.

Mobile and dispersed ground forces—and amphibious forces ashore—would form the backbone of these inside forces. Leveraging the inherent survivability of mobile, hard-to-find ground forces augmented with counter-detection aids, such as camouflage, concealment, and deception (CCD), the inside forces would transform the First Island Chain’s archipelagos into defensive bastions bristling with multi-domain capabilities such as sensors, missiles, and electronic warfare systems. Undersea platforms, both manned and unmanned, could operate within or near the East China Sea and South China Sea to augment these island bastions as part of the inside forces.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I never intended to offend the chinese people. It is well know the agressions, humilitations and exploitation that china suffered in the XIX and XX centuries.

However, thats in the past now. Its was the world from a century ago. You shouldnt hide in that past in order to justify the faillings of china today. And the undisputable fact is that no matter its achievements of the last 40 years (and forgeting what happened in the 30 years prior to that), china is still a semi-capitalist single-party dictatorship while taiwan is a capitalist multi-party democracy. It is understandable that they dont want to join the PRC. Why would they do that?



And go the way of the USSR ? The chinese leadership learned from them not to do that.

Better than losing the war remember China has to overcome the 5 eyes plus Japan and maybe even Nato You need a lot of muscle I don't think China will suffer the fate of Soviet Union since the structure of Chinese economy is completely different from Soviet Union where the state controlled 100 of the economy vs China where the state controlled less then 40%
Soviet Union never manage to put food or consumer good on the table China is abundant with food and consumer good .

China spend hundred of billion dollar supporting Africa, Pakistan, Bri etc those money should be used to defend China territorial integrity come what may.

It is just Chinese people insecurity and goodies goodies 2 shoes that prevent that They suffer debilitating complex "wanting to be loved by the world" that is crazy idea
 

nugroho

Junior Member
Nuclear attack submarines are ill suited for combat in the shallow waters close to the Chinese coastline and in the Taiwan straits. They would be easily hunted down. The Virginias would only be an issue if China pushed past the first island chain into deeper seas. But to conquer Taiwan that is not necessary. If the US retaliated by using fighter aircraft from either Guam or Okinawa, both those places could simply be obliterated with Chinese nuclear weapons like the DF-26. Then any airborne F-22 or F-35s would be like fish out of the water. If the US then insisted and attacked the Chinese mainland, the continental US itself would be obliterated in return with strategic nuclear weapons like the DF-41. I doubt the US would risk that for Taiwan or even Guam or Okinawa. For much the same reason they stayed put after stirring up the hornets nest in Georgia and Ukraine. It is one thing to make a cheap psyops campaign and prop up color revolution to make others fight for you, but quite another to mess with one of the major UN Security Council members directly.

For some reason people think we are back in fantasy WW2 or whatever. What a lot of people forget is the vast majority of Japanese soldiers died fighting in China. Just the Soviet invasion of Manchuria alone caused more Japanese soldier losses than the entire US Pacific campaign. Yes the US Pacific campaign was impressive from a logistics standpoint and in terms of naval warfare but in terms of really winning the war? Overrated IMHO.
And I think China won't use Balistic missile, little use of cruise missiles, and give mlrs saturation from mainland. That will be cheaper than 2 mentioned before. After saturation of MLRS to every important targets, then we will look what Taiwan will be.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
Nope Chinese access to west pacific is limited through few narrows strait that can be blocked by either position Submarine in those straits or mined them. Any surface ships that try to muscle it thru the straits will be targeted by anti ships missile from island close to those straits. Japan controlled most of those island from Miyako all the way to Ogashiwara. Chinese marine need to land on those island and eliminate any non friendly forces That is why I think the reason for those sudden expansion of LHD

For those effort you need large marine sofar Chinese marine only numbered 20,000 with 2nd hand equipment They have plan to increase it to 100,000 but that is decade long effort. Sofar all the exercise is limited to batallion strength they haven't even exercise in corp strength. The marine lack helicopter, landing ships, first class armor and missiles. Japan start putting missile on those island and form marine division to defend those island It will be formidable force for China to overcome it unless they take it seriously
Yup again I don't know what are they thinking.

And the enemy know that and so do PLAN that is why they exercise to pass those straits. Here excerpt from Andrew Erickson reading

Patterns of Chinese Naval Penetrations

After decades of hugging Chinese shorelines as a coastal-defense force, it only makes sense for the PLAN to practice the tactics, techniques and procedures needed to engage farther away from the Chinese seas in wartime. In light of Asia’s cramped maritime geography, it comes as little shock that Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) units routinely discover PLAN units cruising near Japanese islands. As of this writing, PLAN warships have entered and exited the East China Sea through Japanese-held narrow seas on at least six occasions since 2004. Three incidents were particularly noteworthy.

Tsugaru Strait – In October 2008, a surface action group led by a Sovremennyy-class destroyer steamed through the Tsugaru Strait (marking the first time PLAN units had essayed such a transit), circumnavigated Japan, and circled back to port by way of the international strait between Okinawa and the Miyako Islands (Asia Times, April 22).

Okinotorishima – In June 2009, a Chinese flotilla centered on a Luzhou-class guided-missile destroyer—a vessel armed with an advanced air defense system—voyaged to waters near Okinotorishima through the same maritime gateway (Asia Times, April 22).

Miyako Strait – In April 2010, the JMSDF destroyers Choukai and Suzunami unexpectedly encountered eight PLAN warships and two submarines in international waters southwest of Okinawa, near the Ryukyus. The Chinese squadron transited the Miyako Strait—evidently Chinese commanders’ passage of choice—before turning south toward Okinotorishima. The Japanese government lodged a diplomatic protest with Beijing, to little avail [1].

Though modest in scale compared to U.S. naval operations, these expeditions demonstrate the PLAN’s capacity to operate east of the Japanese archipelago while testifying to its growing reach in the Western Pacific. Recent Sino-Japanese encounters offer a foretaste of East Asia’s nautical future.

Unsurprisingly, China’s naval activities sounded alarms within the defense community in Tokyo. In its annual white papers, Japan’s Ministry of Defense has reported with increasing granularity on the character of PLA operations in or near Japanese waters. The 2009 issue for the first time included charts depicting the courses taken by China’s flotillas. The graphics revealed the patterns of Chinese naval penetrations through the southern Ryukyu chain [2]. According to the National Institute for Defense Studies (NIDS), the Defense Ministry’s internal think-tank, “Given the noticeably greater amount of activity by Chinese naval vessels in the Pacific in recent years, it seems undeniable that China is envisaging operations between the so-called ‘first island chain’ (connecting the Ryukyu Islands, Taiwan and the Philippines) and the ‘second island chain’ (connecting the Bonin Islands and Guam)” [3]. The NIDS researchers are onto something. The Japanese archipelago constitutes not only the northern segment of the first island chain but also the northern terminus of the second island chain, which meanders southward from northern Japan to Papua New Guinea. As PLA forces start operating between the inner and outer island chains, consequently, it will be increasingly commonplace for them to pass through Japanese-held straits and passages and cruise along Japan’s eastern maritime frontier.

Here is how they planned to bottle up Chinese navy inside first island

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Inside forces: Below the level of armed conflict, inside forces forward postured in the Western Pacific would provide a persistent, combat credible signal of U.S. commitment, which should give Chinese leaders pause by complicating their decision calculus and undermining their confidence in their military plans. In the event of conflict, they would exploit the region’s maritime geography and assume a dispersed, resilient posture along the First Island Chain to form an initial defensive barrier that could immediately challenge Chinese military operations and play three key roles. First, they would contest what Chinese doctrine has
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
as necessary prerequisites for conducting a successful military campaign: air superiority, sea control, and information dominance. Second, they would attack Chinese power projection forces to delay and deny their ability to achieve objectives through aggression, such as seizing the territory of U.S. allies or partners, while blocking China from projecting power beyond the First Island Chain. Third, they would degrade key Chinese systems to create gaps in China’s A2/AD networks that outside forces could then exploit.

Mobile and dispersed ground forces—and amphibious forces ashore—would form the backbone of these inside forces. Leveraging the inherent survivability of mobile, hard-to-find ground forces augmented with counter-detection aids, such as camouflage, concealment, and deception (CCD), the inside forces would transform the First Island Chain’s archipelagos into defensive bastions bristling with multi-domain capabilities such as sensors, missiles, and electronic warfare systems. Undersea platforms, both manned and unmanned, could operate within or near the East China Sea and South China Sea to augment these island bastions as part of the inside forces.


I think your analysis is shallow and limited in terms of possibilities. Those so called choke points are so close to China that Chinese fighter jets can easily establish control over them from the sky. Chinese ground missiles can easily saturate them at low cost. This is the benefit of being close to countries and population centers. Sure it looks like a challenge now because China is so weak and poor. But once China gets rich it will have 4-5000+ advanced fighter jets similar to or even more than US. Then China will have absolute air superiority over those places.

Air power is the only power that matters. Nothing can hide from air power. Even if you hide in the ground, bunker bluster bombs can destroy them. Any kind of enemy force concentration will be destroyed. No matter if its missiles, ships, planes, tanks. You can destroy submarines from the air. You can destroy all opposition from the air. Once China has a big enough air force, it will dominate both East, South East and South Asia. The biggest problem for air power is range, but that is not an issue for China because everything is so close.
 

EblisTx

Junior Member
And I think China won't use Balistic missile, little use of cruise missiles, and give mlrs saturation from mainland. That will be cheaper than 2 mentioned before. After saturation of MLRS to every important targets, then we will look what Taiwan will be.
You totally misunderstood it. The liberation of TW will be the ultimate fight in the near future and it doesn't make any sense not to use missiles in order to save a few RMBs. It is not uncommon to see a dozen of DF11/15 launch in a military drill. To my knowledge, launching a DF11 is kinda a graduation ceremony for future Rocket Force students.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
You must be thinking that this is the XVIII century where countries (even in this case, an unrecognized country) could be conquered and nothing would happen to them because it was the law of the strongest. If china tried to invade taiwan, it would suffer the consequences from not only the US but also the EU, japan, india, etc. Thats why that regarding taiwan, china menaces a lot, but does nothing in the end.
No longer a time when countries can conquer territories by force, you say? Ahaha Weak nations like to think that, don't they? Force is universal and timeless. China would suffer some minor diplomatic consequences but China is too big now; they sanction China, they destroy their own economies. And China is growing bigger and more influential by the day. In the end, most countries will give some criticism, a slap on the wrist, then business as usual while the US howls away. China doesn't want to use force on Taiwan; that is Chinese people killing Chinese people. We prefer the peaceful solution, but prefer is exactly what it means; it's not a must. But reunification is a must.
And i remember well the 1995-1996 missile crisis which were a total failure for china.
Well check your calendar and stop living in the past, mate! It's not 1516, not 1995; It's 2020! Where China's worst mistakes are more successful that your country's greatest successes. If you were Dutch, you'd have ASML to talk about but now... nothing at all... tsk tsk Talk shit about China? You must be this tall to ride, and you, lil' fella, are not even up to the ankles of the required height.
The US military and economic fallout from the rest of the world isnt reason enough? your 10-30 year GDP forecasts are only theory and are dependent on so many unknow factors, not least believing in todays china´s GDP data.
For a small country like yours, it is more than compelling. For China, not so much. We don't have to talk about 10 or 30 year anything. Right now China's economy is top in the world in COVID resilience and PPP.
The rest of your post doesnt even merit my comment.
Because your comments are themselves without merit.
 
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Orthan

Senior Member
No longer a time when countries can conquer territories by force, you say? Ahaha Weak nations like to think that, don't they? Force is universal and timeless. China would suffer some minor diplomatic consequences but China is too big now; they sanction China, they destroy their own economies. And China is growing bigger and more influential by the day. In the end, most countries will give some criticism, a slap on the wrist, then business as usual while the US howls away.

That made me laugh. Obviously, the chinese government thinks differently from you.

Well check your calendar and stop living in the past, mate! It's not 1516, not 1995; It's 2020! Where China's worst mistakes are more successful that your country's greatest successes. If you were Dutch

First, im not dutch, im portuguese. Second, obviously china made a lot of progress since 1995, but in terms of military air and sea capabilities, china continues to be a gnome compared to the US. Third, no, you DONT want to talk about china´s worst mistakes,or do you want me to talk about the great leap forward (in which tens of millions died of starvation) or the cultural revolution ? those are well in the past, but i still remember well Tiananmen Square...
 
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