China Flanker thread

[goldenpanda]

There are certain advantages not to use the WS-10A at all. First the advantage of using a local engine is kind of moot, and rather symbolic. Only to say it's Made in China and tactically, it has no significance. Developing an indigenous engine comes in handy when you are facing a possible boycott from your suppliers. But the opposite is in this case, since your supplier is dying to sell you, willing to give you good prices and the best technology.

Second, to introduce WS-10A means an entirely new system of logistical infrastructure has to be introduced for this engine. That means training of technicians, a new maintenance regimen, inventory of parts, distribution system and so on. Whereas for the AL-31F, you alrready have such a structure. In the end, its only more inconvenient for the PLAAF.

Third. Concept of WS-10 arose in the eighties when China and the Soviet Union is still in a faceoff. Even then after that China still distrusts Russia and wonders if a long term alliance or relationship can be maintained as both do not trust each other. So if Russia happens to embargo China, China can fully turn both J-11 and J-10 indigenous and not be reliant on Russia. However, in 2006, the geopolitics have changed, their relationship has more than sustained into an alliance. At the same time, China is in need now of Russia's oil and mineral resources. and needs to be in the good side of Putin. Also helps to release those RD-93s for Pakistan second export. But nonetheless, purchases from Russia also serve as a political tool, they can dual role as cards to help get better access to Siberian resources.

These are all good points. What I hear repeated from Chinese engineers, however, is this theme: waiting until domestic products improve is the wrong road. You have to do it yourself even if you don't do it as well. It's the only way to get better--and getting your own people to a better level is more valuable than any short term savings. (comparative advantage can go to hell!) Especially in military technology which take decades of experience, not just theoretical knowledge, domestic development must never stop.

The trend is to recognize the mistaken strategy in the 80's to rely on imported knowledge. For whatever reason we don't learn from western experience the way we learn from our own. Do it to get the experience, that's the belief today. That's why you see a wide range of "uneconomical" projects, not only in military but civilian products -- nuclear power, rockets, spacecraft, aircraft, semiconductors, cars, bullet trains, China is doing them all.

Economists don't know how to price learning, doesn't mean we won't value it.

 

[crobato]

any info about overall RCS for F-15A and F-15C?
according to the russian sales brochure,RCS for new version of Flanker been reduced to 1 meter.in this area,the Russian were ahead.

I think the Russians are exaggerating marketing hype again as usual. I feel that this claim is quite questionable given the design they have to work with.

These are all good points. What I hear repeated from Chinese engineers, however, is this theme: waiting until domestic products improve is the wrong road. You have to do it yourself even if you don't do it as well. It's the only way to get better--and getting your own people to a better level is more valuable than any short term savings. (comparative advantage can go to hell!) Especially in military technology which take decades of experience, not just theoretical knowledge, domestic development must never stop.

The trend is to recognize the mistaken strategy in the 80's to rely on imported knowledge. For whatever reason we don't learn from western experience the way we learn from our own. Do it to get the experience, that's the belief today. That's why you see a wide range of "uneconomical" projects, not only in military but civilian products -- nuclear power, rockets, spacecraft, aircraft, semiconductors, cars, bullet trains, China is doing them all.

Economists don't know how to price learning, doesn't mean we won't value it.

That's true, that's apparently the road China takes.

But of course, it is also situational. Plane like the J-10 and J-11B is a complete system, which means its a chain of products.

But lets take for example, if one component in this chain is late, would it be prejudicial and not in the overall best interest that all the other Chinese parts manufacturers have to wait and suffer for the tardiness of one parts manufacturer that is unable to bring his product on time? Thus practicality means you have to make the best decision for the majority.

Anyway, its moot, it looks pretty decided that its the WS-10A coming into the J-11B afterall.

 

[lilzz]

Since the flanker is one more hot selling plane around the world, why doesn't China try to export its J11B? It should be pretty profitable.

 

[crobato]

Because there may be an agreement with Sukhoi that China cannot export or resell its Flankers, even its old ones.

 

[Roger604]

Because there may be an agreement with Sukhoi that China cannot export or resell its Flankers, even its old ones.

Why should that stop China from doing exactly that.... export or resell its Flankers?

We'll just say "we need more money." :rofl:

 

[crobato]

Because an agreement is an agreement. Otherwise you do not have a word of honor. China needs Russia for a lot of other things to, and that friendship should not be put on the line just to sell a few planes.

 

[Roger604]

Because an agreement is an agreement. Otherwise you do not have a word of honor. China needs Russia for a lot of other things to, and that friendship should not be put on the line just to sell a few planes.

Well obviously, you don't need to honor your word to somebody who breaks their word.

If Russia doesn't deliver those IL-76's pronto, at the original cost, China should open up the market for J-11B. :china:

 

[crobato]

I don't think it works that way. And the Chinese goverment would be horrified if they think the way you do.

Since China hasn't paid the Russians a single penny yet, the Russians still have the option to renegotiate the contract, although it kind of makes look like fools.

You have to honor your word regardless whether someone breaks their word or not. You don't have to stoop to their level.

Regardless of anything, China isn't going to sell the J-11Bs no matter what. It seems both PLAAF and CMC are also against that idea.

 

[Roger604]

I don't think it works that way. And the Chinese goverment would be horrified if they think the way you do.

Since China hasn't paid the Russians a single penny yet, the Russians still have the option to renegotiate the contract, although it kind of makes look like fools.

You have to honor your word regardless whether someone breaks their word or not. You don't have to stoop to their level.

Regardless of anything, China isn't going to sell the J-11Bs no matter what. It seems both PLAAF and CMC are also against that idea.

Oh I was under the impression the money is already in Russia's hands and they might not even refund the purchase price if negotiations fail. Never mind then, you're right about this.

 

[lilzz]

Because there may be an agreement with Sukhoi that China cannot export or resell its Flankers, even its old ones.

I thought the J11B is completely indeginous; airframes, electronics, weapons, engines. China is not even using those old SU-27 kit anymore.
There are no russian-made components in them.

So, why china couldn't sell its completely indeginous plane?