China Flanker thread

[crobato]

The J-10 has a rated speed of Mach 2.0, but then so does many other fighters according to their marketing. How high your mach isn't much of a tactical value. What's important is how fast you can get to it, how long you can stay on it, and how much you can carry while you do it.

The F-18s by their aerodynamic design, are meant for low speed maneuverbility. They are meant to turn fast, turn tight, turn at even slower speeds, then turn even tighter. The draggy design is not efficient for fast cruising or over Mach 1. The J-10 is more efficient at higher speeds all the way to the supersonic. It's really a rabbit. Just check what is the most visually obvious aspect of aerodynamics---the sweep of the wing. Wings with a straighforward edge and sweep do much better at lower speeds, and is very maneuverable, but tends to get draggy and slower at higher speeds. Wings with a very sharp and acute sweep don't turn as well at lower speeds, but they are very fast in turns involving wide sweeping circles with full military power. Sharp wings also let you hit supersonic faster and reach higher mach.

 

[challenge]

It appears that the IRST on the J-11B might be Chinese. I think the whole plane has a stated and political goal of going all Chinese, regardless if some of the Russian equivalents of the parts might actually perform better.

The R-77 modification extends to all the J-11s including the ones on the kits. As a matter of fact, it seems that the last batch of Su-27UBK, which was all imported from Russia, were also upgraded with them.

Importation of OLS-31E (the Su-30 IRST) is likely for the J-11A. It is likely that this OLS model is standard on all J-11s including the ones in the kits.

Hard to define what is high or low mix.

If the J-11B flyaway costs well under 35 million (Su-30MK2 costs 37 million in 2004 dollars), J-10 around 24-25 million, and FC-1 is under 20 million. Does that really make much of a difference? We're not seeing a Toyota-Lexus relationship. Its more like Camry vs. Corolla vs. Yaris/Vios.

the original Su-27SK IRST do not possess modern IR imaging capability,but 2 years ago.october 2005 a Chinese technical magazine reveal new generation of IRST,call Chung Kuang-1,although no technical data was reveal.but during the Beijing def. exhibition, Loyang optical displayed Gen.3 focal plane array detector-Quantum wells IR array detector.
There is possibility that Chinese engineer replace the original russian IR detector with Chinese design IR detector.

 

[tphuang]

Looks like a picture of J-11B at CFTE.
Notice the black nose + the MAW.

 

[kca90]

Pardon for asking. What's the physical differences between a MKK and a MK2?
What do I look for when looking at pictures? Thanks

 

[BLUEJACKET]

I don't think you can ID them by looking at pictures, unless their serial #s / regimental colors are known, and they carry anti-ship and/or other typical missiles to each type of fighter.
PLA Air Force:
Su-30MKK

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Su-30MKK2

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Development of the latest Su-30MK2 began around early 2002. Compared to the MKK version in service with the PLAAF, the Su-30MK2 features an improved precision-attack capability and an entirely new C4ISTAR (command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance) role not previously hinted at. The aircraft’s new N001VEP fire-control radar is specifically modified to launch the Kh-31 (NATO codename: Kh-17A Krypton-A) long-range supersonic anti-ship missile.

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http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showpost.php?p=22292&postcount=35

The SU-30MK2 is not the most advanced Russian fighter developed; it lacks the canard foreplanes or thrust vectoring of more advanced variants like India's SU-30MKI,.. Having said that, SU-30MK2s as a base platform are the equal of China's most advanced SU-30MKKK2s, and equal to or better than most SU-30 variants currently serving in Russia.

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The main difference of the Su-30MK2 model is its improved radar which is the upgraded N001VEP radar, with longer range coverage (up to 150 km) and able to guide a greater variety of weapons systems. ..
Su-30MKKs and especially the MK2, with their long range radars and Russian made weapons would undoubtedly be a great threat to US Navy ships operating near the Chinese coasts. The KH-31A for instance has a long range and its ramjet engine provide a high attack speed (around Mach 2.5) that could penetrate current air defenses of ships (even the sophisticated AEGIS). Chinese Su-30s will undoubtedly replace some of the old and vulnerable H-6 Badger bombers from strike or anti-ship roles, as these new fighter-bombers can deliver munitions more accurately while possessing just as much range and weapons load as these old bombers.

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[crobato]

RUMOR TIME !!

好消息！已证实鞍山换J11B。。。空19S成为唯一的全27师(图)
2007-04-09 00:53:25 点击:755
好消息！已证实鞍山换J11B。。。空19S成为唯一的全27师(图)

--------

好消息!!!已证实鞍山换J11B....空19S成为唯一的全27师
考古 2007-04-07 15:34

原来的J11/A移交郑州马头岗机场...
空19S成为T*G唯一的全27师!!!!!!!!!!!


Just to make it short, looks like the 19th Division at Anshan will be the first to get the J-11B. Their J-11/J-11As willl find a new home.

 

[cobrachen]

I don't think you can ID them by looking at pictures, unless their serial #s / regimental colors are known, and they carry anti-ship and/or other typical missiles to each type of fighter.
PLA Air Force:
Su-30MKK

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Su-30MKK2

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http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showpost.php?p=22292&postcount=35

MKK2 is used by navy air force only.

 

[cobrachen]

It appears that the IRST on the J-11B might be Chinese. I think the whole plane has a stated and political goal of going all Chinese, regardless if some of the Russian equivalents of the parts might actually perform better.

The R-77 modification extends to all the J-11s including the ones on the kits. As a matter of fact, it seems that the last batch of Su-27UBK, which was all imported from Russia, were also upgraded with them.

I believe MKK and MK2 are the only models could fire R77 when went into service. J-11 is going to get upgrade to use R77. No confirmed info indicated they already done and don't think so, especially Russian just started doing it in recent year.

 

[crobato]

According to one Jane's articles, authored by Hewson, China imported about a hundred upgrade kits in order to upgrade the J-11 radar. Later in a second article, it turned out that these kits only add R-77 capability, but not anything related to ground or surface attack. According to the article, circa 2004, tens of the planes have been upgraded.

A Kanwa article, circa December 2000, mentions that the new UBKs China were receiving at that time, had software upgrades to support the R-77.

True or not?

One of the recent J-10 test pilot interviews deny the Su-27s having R-77. And it is true, we have never seen an R-77 on an Su-27 or J-11.

On the other hand, there is a photograph showing that the cockpit of the J-11 has a second MFD fitted on top of the dashboard. Not a standard Su-27 cockpit. If you see pictures of J-11s, you will see a black box next to the HUD, that is visible under the front windshield. This box would correspond to that MFD. It is not present in pics of standard Su-27s, or even the Su-27s China imported earlier.

The last batch of Su-27UBKs China imported since 2000, also has this black box visible under the windshield.

I have a theory that these boxes are related to using the R-77, as the new MFD can be used to display additional radar modes without modifying the existing one underneath. To use the R-77 you would need a true Track While Scan mode, with a submode for engagement and target prioritizing.

I have a second theory, that while China did upgrade the J-11s, they did not procure enough R-77s, as they may not have been that impressed with it. Also because of the PL-12. The program may have been cut short, and they may save the expense, to later upgrading the planes to use the PL-12 by completely overhauling the avionics to the J-11B standard.

I don't believe the story that the PL-12 uses a Russian seeker from the R-77, because if it does, the PL-12 can easily be made compatible with the MKKs/MK2s and modified J-11s. The fire control system would recognize the PL-12 as an R-77, and for all intents and purposes, such a PL-12 would be an R-77 soul in a new body. It is however, a logical idea not without practical merit. But I don't think it was ever implemented either.

 

[tphuang]

I think your second theory makes a lot of sense. I think it makes far more sense for China to just put their own avionics on the newer J-11A and a radar that supports PL-12. After all, that's the main advantage J-11B has over J-11A.