China Flanker thread

[crobato]

Looking at nozzles from a distance (or directly to the center) is not a very good way to tell engines. Even though you can tell the nozzles of PW F100 powered vs. GE F110 powered F-16s when you're that close, from a distance, you just can't tell it. The GE powered planes also has a larger intake duct, but once you put some distance from the plane, its really hard to tell and not without a PW powered plane for a side by side comparison.

 

[SteelBird]

I have been studying the 'J-11B photos' released on Internet recently.

I have a theory: the aircraft shown in the photo may not be J-11B, it is a variant fitted with a Chinese-made avionics, but still with old AL-31F engine.

So far I haven't heard any concrete evidence showing aircraft powered by WS-10A is in service. From the photo we can see this new J-11 variant is already in operational service, therefore it may still be fitted with AL-31F.

Still, a big step forward for the aircraft to be able to fire PL-12 and PL-8

Hi DongFeng

I'm not sure if you know Chinese, but I hope you do. A TV show on Phoenix TV last night called 軍事觀察室 (Military Observasion Room) that taken charged by a guy called 馬鼎勝. He has mentioned about 4 points that I noticed in his TV program:

1). the WS-10 (I was curious that he didn't mention about the "A" that we are always talking about) he said the WS-10 is inferior compared to AL-31 in some aspects such as its starting time that it take 40 seconds longer to start a WS-10 than the AL-31. And acceleration also take longer time which is a real weak point in real combat.
2). J-10 has a potential export market up 1200 planes.
3). When some one asked him that recently Internet speculation said that a mockup excercise hold between the US and China that the Chinese J-8s has shot down on F-22, is it possible? He said, if the excercise is hold in China's mainland, it is possible. Because China can use all resource it has to find and track the Raptor, so, it's not impossible for the J-8 to shoot down the Raptor.
4). In recently visit to Europe, the Japanese Prime Minister has requested the EU again and again not to lift the military embargo against China.

 

[crobato]

WS-10 corresponds to the F100 220E, while WS-10A corresponds to -229. The A is more powerful at 29,000lbs of thrust, whle the WS-10 is only 24,000 to 25,000lbs of thrust. The AL-31FN is 27,500lbs. WS-10 is only as strong as what the Mirage 2000s and F-16As currently have.

The way I see it, the interview only justifies a decision made over 10 years ago, and little what may come in store this year.

As an engine family, I would think that the WS-10B would be 32,000lbs of thrust.

 

[crobato]

I have been studying the 'J-11B photos' released on Internet recently.

I have a theory: the aircraft shown in the photo may not be J-11B, it is a variant fitted with a Chinese-made avionics, but still with old AL-31F engine.

So far I haven't heard any concrete evidence showing aircraft powered by WS-10A is in service. From the photo we can see this new J-11 variant is already in operational service, therefore it may still be fitted with AL-31F.

Still, a big step forward for the aircraft to be able to fire PL-12 and PL-8

There are certain advantages not to use the WS-10A at all. First the advantage of using a local engine is kind of moot, and rather symbolic. Only to say it's Made in China and tactically, it has no significance. Developing an indigenous engine comes in handy when you are facing a possible boycott from your suppliers. But the opposite is in this case, since your supplier is dying to sell you, willing to give you good prices and the best technology.

Second, to introduce WS-10A means an entirely new system of logistical infrastructure has to be introduced for this engine. That means training of technicians, a new maintenance regimen, inventory of parts, distribution system and so on. Whereas for the AL-31F, you alrready have such a structure. In the end, its only more inconvenient for the PLAAF.

Third. Concept of WS-10 arose in the eighties when China and the Soviet Union is still in a faceoff. Even then after that China still distrusts Russia and wonders if a long term alliance or relationship can be maintained as both do not trust each other. So if Russia happens to embargo China, China can fully turn both J-11 and J-10 indigenous and not be reliant on Russia. However, in 2006, the geopolitics have changed, their relationship has more than sustained into an alliance. At the same time, China is in need now of Russia's oil and mineral resources. and needs to be in the good side of Putin. Also helps to release those RD-93s for Pakistan second export. But nonetheless, purchases from Russia also serve as a political tool, they can dual role as cards to help get better access to Siberian resources.

 

[tphuang]

This guy 李中华 has pretty much become a celebrity in China as one of the main test pilots for J-10 and other fighters
an interview with him

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李中华：每次受领一个新的任务，试飞某型新武器系统之前，我都会在相当长的一段时间，做大量的准备，把有关的资料看得很透。遇到一些疑难问题，我都要把它列出来，找工业部门的工程师、专家请教，和他们讨论。最近我们完成了两项重要设备的试飞，一个是衍射平显，一个是光电雷达，在试飞过程中，我就学到了很多新东西。

This part is interesting, he mentions that they recently completed test flights with two important system, one is HUD diffraction (widescreen HUD?) and IRST. Not sure if he is talking about testing these with J-11B or J-10. But if it's the latter, that would be a confirmation that J-10 is equipping with IRST.

 

[Chengdu J-10]

Hi DongFeng

I'm not sure if you know Chinese, but I hope you do. A TV show on Phoenix TV last night called 軍事觀察室 (Military Observasion Room) that taken charged by a guy called 馬鼎勝. He has mentioned about 4 points that I noticed in his TV program:

1). the WS-10 (I was curious that he didn't mention about the "A" that we are always talking about) he said the WS-10 is inferior compared to AL-31 in some aspects such as its starting time that it take 40 seconds longer to start a WS-10 than the AL-31. And acceleration also take longer time which is a real weak point in real combat.
2). J-10 has a potential export market up 1200 planes.
3). When some one asked him that recently Internet speculation said that a mockup excercise hold between the US and China that the Chinese J-8s has shot down on F-22, is it possible? He said, if the excercise is hold in China's mainland, it is possible. Because China can use all resource it has to find and track the Raptor, so, it's not impossible for the J-8 to shoot down the Raptor.
4). In recently visit to Europe, the Japanese Prime Minister has requested the EU again and again not to lift the military embargo against China.

This is one reason why their is still tension between China and Japan. While China wants to have peace with Japan, Japan just goes and pisses China off by saying to the EU constantly not to lift the embargo as the EU is starting to decide if or if not. This has really stirred up China, if Japan just shuts up it it would be more friendly with China. As soon as the EU is thinking of lifting up Japan and US comes in and shuts the lid from opening.

Anyway sorry to go off the topic. Yes I watch that show called Phoenix TV it is on every Wednesday night at our location, though I cannot quite fully understand as it speaks Mandarin though I can pick up some words due to it is sort of simular to Cantonese which I understand. To add to your list there are several different prototypes with the WS-10 with TVC experiments, which he mentioned really briefly. Sorry 2D TVC not 3D. Some of the footage showing the J-10 on Phoenix TV is not present on You tube or the ones shown on Sinodefence. It shows a bit more extra of the J-10, more close ups.

 

[crobato]

This guy 李中华 has pretty much become a celebrity in China as one of the main test pilots for J-10 and other fighters
an interview with him

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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This part is interesting, he mentions that they recently completed test flights with two important system, one is HUD diffraction (widescreen HUD?) and IRST. Not sure if he is talking about testing these with J-11B or J-10. But if it's the latter, that would be a confirmation that J-10 is equipping with IRST.

It kind of sounds like the J-11B, since said pilot is the guy also seen in the recent J-11B pics. And that's the plane with the widescreen HUD and apparently a Chinese designed IRST that has replaced the one on the Su-27.

 

[Dongfeng]

Hi DongFeng

I'm not sure if you know Chinese, but I hope you do. A TV show on Phoenix TV last night called 軍事觀察室 (Military Observasion Room) that taken charged by a guy called 馬鼎勝. He has mentioned about 4 points that I noticed in his TV program:

1). the WS-10 (I was curious that he didn't mention about the "A" that we are always talking about) he said the WS-10 is inferior compared to AL-31 in some aspects such as its starting time that it take 40 seconds longer to start a WS-10 than the AL-31. And acceleration also take longer time which is a real weak point in real combat.
2). J-10 has a potential export market up 1200 planes.
3). When some one asked him that recently Internet speculation said that a mockup excercise hold between the US and China that the Chinese J-8s has shot down on F-22, is it possible? He said, if the excercise is hold in China's mainland, it is possible. Because China can use all resource it has to find and track the Raptor, so, it's not impossible for the J-8 to shoot down the Raptor.
4). In recently visit to Europe, the Japanese Prime Minister has requested the EU again and again not to lift the military embargo against China.

Yes, I can read and speak Chinese as I'm a Chinese. However, i don't have access to Phoenix Satellite Tv so didn't watch the programme.

It now appears that there is WS-10 and there is WS-10A. A reported posted on Chinese Internet yesterday confirmed that among the seven J-10 prototypes, the first five are actually powered by indigenous WS-10 while only the 6th and 7th are powered by AL-31F. This is very shocking since we all thought that without AL-31F the J-10 wouldn't even fly! My guess is that WS-10 is not entirely succssful so they have to switch to AL-31F on production variant.

I am watching the development of the situation closely but at the moment it is very difficult to make sense to lots of things.

 

[speculator]

Maybe this will clear up the confusion a bit:
from the main engineer of the taihang ws-10a,

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[kickars]

Yes, I can read and speak Chinese as I'm a Chinese. However, i don't have access to Phoenix Satellite Tv so didn't watch the programme.

It now appears that there is WS-10 and there is WS-10A. A reported posted on Chinese Internet yesterday confirmed that among the seven J-10 prototypes, the first five are actually powered by indigenous WS-10 while only the 6th and 7th are powered by AL-31F. This is very shocking since we all thought that without AL-31F the J-10 wouldn't even fly! My guess is that WS-10 is not entirely succssful so they have to switch to AL-31F on production variant.

I am watching the development of the situation closely but at the moment it is very difficult to make sense to lots of things.

Hi Dongfeng, I live in the UK as well. And I don't have Sky, either. But you can download the programme from

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. It's been uploaded every week.