China Flanker thread

[tphuang]

J-11B a single seater upgraded from a J-11, license production of the Russia Su-27SK. The J-11B is either fully or mostly made from domestic Chinese parts enhancing the original J-11 basic license production of the Su-27SK to a more multi-role fighter through Chinese technology upgrades possibly designated as the J-11B. Most significant upgrades or domestic insertions that sets it apart from the basic J-11 would be replacing the Russia AL-31F turbofans to the Chinese WS-10A turbofans with increased thrust from 122.8kN to 129.4kN. And replacing the Russian NIIP N001 radar with Chinese Shedian-10 and finally the Russian R-77 AAM's with Chinese SD-10 AAM's. Now the original J-11 (Su-27) is a single seater and according to some articles so is the J-11B, and the Su-30MKK series are two seaters. If the single seater of the J-11B is true is basically and technological upgraded version of the the Su-27SK with near or full Chinese technology. Though the J-11B will have increased manuverability over the basic J-11, and can play more roles than the J-11 of being air superiority.

With the last post if their are any errors with the information feel free to correct or discuss. Though I do think that the J-11B will or has incorporated TVC turbofans engines.

hmm, let's not go that far with the engine yet. Yes, WS-10A is an important step considering that its basic performance is suppose to match that of F110-129, but that doesn't mean we can just make extremely high expectation of it. For example, it currently doesn't even have FADEC. It still uses hybird control system, even though China has developed FADEC. As for TVC, again it's something that hasn't been incorporated yet. I'm far more interested in the next generation of WS-10 with FADEC and thrust of 155kN.

 

[crobato]

J-11B a single seater upgraded from a J-11, license production of the Russia Su-27SK. The J-11B is either fully or mostly made from domestic Chinese parts enhancing the original J-11 basic license production of the Su-27SK to a more multi-role fighter through Chinese technology upgrades possibly designated as the J-11B. Most significant upgrades or domestic insertions that sets it apart from the basic J-11 would be replacing the Russia AL-31F turbofans to the Chinese WS-10A turbofans with increased thrust from 122.8kN to 129.4kN. And replacing the Russian NIIP N001 radar with Chinese Shedian-10 and finally the Russian R-77 AAM's with Chinese SD-10 AAM's. Now the original J-11 (Su-27) is a single seater and according to some articles so is the J-11B, and the Su-30MKK series are two seaters. If the single seater of the J-11B is true is basically and technological upgraded version of the the Su-27SK with near or full Chinese technology. Though the J-11B will have increased manuverability over the basic J-11, and can play more roles than the J-11 of being air superiority.

With the last post if their are any errors with the information feel free to correct or discuss. Though I do think that the J-11B will or has incorporated TVC turbofans engines.

I wish people would stop calling the radar Shedian 10. Shedian 10 is the name for SD-10 and that's the missile.

I think the J-11B performs somewhere between the Su-30MKK and the Su-35. Faster with more thrust, but not without the maneuverbility tidbits of the Su-35 like canards. Sensor awareness/radar/avionics is about equal to better of the Su-30MKK/MK2. If the Russians wanted a billion just to license the Su-30MKK for production in China, that billion would have been better spent developing the J-11B further.

In any case, I think the Type 149X series is better than what the MKK/MK2 has now, perhaps able to give the Zhuk MSE of the MK3 a run for it, but not better than BARS or IRBIS. But its all in increments and not significant.

But its all better for the Chinese industry and economy. Means money spent on Chinese jobs and companies. It means controlling the architecture so its good for the Chinese munitions industry, and not having to import anything from Russian pods to Russian PGMs.

The importance is not about sheer aircraft performance, but the economic and technological strategic positioning.

I kind of expect that the first J-11B regiment should go IOC within the year and I wonder if individual examples have been seeded on various regiments for testing and try outs.

 

[Scratch]

I kind of expect that the first J-11B regiment should go IOC within the year ...

Can somebody predict wich regiment (and where it's placed) will be the one to initially introduce serial produced J-11Bs?

 

[Deino]

:rofl:

 

[Pointblank]

:rofl:

[qimg]http://centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/J-11B_%2B_J-8F_2x.jpg[/qimg]

I see a pair of J-7's as well, in the back, along with a pair of J-8's. I don't think that we can call that Flanker a J-11B, we only see the first half of it.

 

[Deino]

I see a pair of J-7's as well, in the back, along with a pair of J-8's. I don't think that we can call that Flanker a J-11B, we only see the first half of it.

Yes, but if You look closely, You can notice these small "stripes" on the sides of the black radome similar to the one on the latest J-8H/F and J-10 ... maybe crobato can tell You more about !

Deino

 

[speculator]

According to many chinese sources, the J-11B is already out and is serving with the first air devision？ (Tphuang can help me here: what is the translation of 师？）
the aircraft also looks very new and does not have any markings. as Deino said, the stripes on the radome proves thats its not a J-11 or a Su-27

 

[crobato]

I see a pair of J-7's as well, in the back, along with a pair of J-8's. I don't think that we can call that Flanker a J-11B, we only see the first half of it.

Its a J-11B for sure. No Flanker has a black nose with static strips. Black nose with static strips is now a new standard with the PLAAF. Somehow every plane that has a NRIET KLJ series radar has this radome as part of their requirement, suggesting the material is frequency selective and honed with the radar's frequencies. Of course, static strips is a Western invention, you see that on anything from F-16s to civil airliners. They are meant for protection against cloud lightning.

The J-8s there are J-8Fs with similar KLJ series radars and also have the black radomes. Likewise, check every picture of the J-10 and FC-1, and you see the same thing.

The only new planes without the black radomes are the JH-7A, which uses the Leihua JL-10A radar, and the J-7G. Although the plane may have tested (and reported) to have used the KLJ-6E, it is possible that the contract was won by another radar called SY-80, which have been shown in defense expos.

I mentioned before that NRIET developed what appears to be a modular architecture fire control radar, the idea from Israel's ELTA and Russia's Zhuk series. You design one basic member of the family, and then by altering certain components of the design, like a smaller or larger antenna, you can fit the same basic design of radar on different aircraft. Thus the radars from the FC-1 to the J-11B are all related. The basic radar itself was perfected early on the J-8IIs. That is why China is able to so quickly fit these radars on a variety of aircraft. The Russians thought that developing a radar and FCS system for the J-11 would have taken ten years---it was much less than that.

Because of the modularity approach on the radar and FCS, the same design would be easier to turn into a PESA or AESA later on. New antenna, alterations on the software and components, without building a radar and FCS system from scratch.

 

[crobato]

According to many chinese sources, the J-11B is already out and is serving with the first air devision？ (Tphuang can help me here: what is the translation of 师？）
the aircraft also looks very new and does not have any markings. as Deino said, the stripes on the radome proves thats its not a J-11 or a Su-27

The character means "teacher" but in this sense, it means division.

If they are serving with the 1st Division, either the 1st Regiment has to pass their J-11s to someone else, or the 2nd Regiment has to pass their J-8Fs to someone else. 3rd Regiment, accoring to rumors, may be getting J-10s.

The pic of the J-11B there is accompanied by J-8Fs, but I believe this to be a test regiment of the CFTC. The J-8Fs there, with serials 60093 and 60094, are the ones used to test the LS-6 glide bomb.

I do believe that if J-11B goes IOC, it would have to be the 1st Regiment of the 1st Division, as the 1st Division, stationed in Shenyang MR and the closest to the factory, is the one that gets the first and latest Shenyang goods. The 1st Division has the first all J-11 regiment (although 2nd Division recieved some seed J-11s first), and the first all J-8F regiment, all Shenyang AC's products. Conservatively, its best to try the J-11B on a unit that already has the prior experience with J-11s. The best way to do this is seed some J-11Bs into the existing regiment first, then work out the problems and the details the IOC would expose. Then gradually convert the entire regiment to J-11B and the older J-11s are relocated elsewhere.

Now I am looking for is the J-11S (two seat J-11).

 

[Chengdu J-10]

hmm, let's not go that far with the engine yet. Yes, WS-10A is an important step considering that its basic performance is suppose to match that of F110-129, but that doesn't mean we can just make extremely high expectation of it. For example, it currently doesn't even have FADEC. It still uses hybird control system, even though China has developed FADEC. As for TVC, again it's something that hasn't been incorporated yet. I'm far more interested in the next generation of WS-10 with FADEC and thrust of 155kN.

I think you have accidentally misunderstood what was in the post. The "most" significant not saying it has but the most significant change from the J-11 "would" be having WS-10A turbofans fitted on the J-11B. Hybird control system for the engines yes and no. Speculated articles that personally don't seem reliable indicates China has incorporated some of its WS-10A with ADEC. As for TVC, next major step China should look into. Though we can't expect to highly, but we can at least logically and mathematically assume the engine is more capable than the AL-31 and in the class of F110-129 engines performance. All in all one thing is for certain it is more capable than the existing AL-31 turbofan engines equipped on the Su-27, Su-30, J-11, J-10. Though mass production of these WS-10A engines don't seem to be anytime time soon. Small production is set though.