China Flanker thread

[tphuang]

if those weapon platform are old cheap and obselet, doesnt that also mean the China is really stupid for wasting billions of dollars on them? mkk are more capable than any other plane in China. Super 10 should be something thats on parr with F-22 or F-35, which means they are going to be expensive and very few deployment. Su-27 and its variants can still have a place in plaaf as a low tech combo to super-10.

that's not really correct. J-10 is far more capable than the mkk. I personally think they needed mkk at the time, because China did not have anything with that kind of multi-role capability. Also, it gave China a lot of ground atttack weapons and PGMs and such. Which, they did not have before. But, it seems like China's ground attack munitions are really rounding out recently and JH-7A can make good use of a wide variety of Russian and Chinese weapons, so that's why you are not really seeing any further purchase of mkk (along with the fact that mkk aren't that great of air superiority platform).

As for flanker's place in PLAAF, I've been pretty consistent on this.

As for some of the stuff we got from the Russians, I wouldn't call them top of the line even if they are top of the line for Russians.

The kilos are from the 70s and they certainly aren't as quiet as modern designs. Sovs are also from the 70s and certainly don't measure up to the new AAW ships in Europe and East Asia (referring to KDX-3 and Atago). The list goes on.

 

[Chengdu J-10]

Chengdu J-10

Perhaps Russia didn't expect China to come along that fast. Sell them something good but not the best, to keep them away(technical); and a few years later sell them more advanced systems to make money again. Well if that was the intention, it went wrong ...

That

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still looks odd to me with that seat-config

Crobato


Will it come with that “Zhuk-MSFEh” aircraft radar that was implemented in test aircrafts after the "succesfull bench tests and revision" some 3 years ago ?
Reason for my question is because of weapon use. Russian AShM with russian radar, chinese AShM implemented, or chinese radar ?

That's Russian military for you. They (Russia) should've planned way ahead the effects of not giving the Chinese their latest and advance equipment. Russia only planned ahead for just a few years while the China planned ahead for what 10+ years. If Russia planned ahead they wouldn't be in this mess, and would still be selling China a load of stuff than today. Look at Russia now they are basically offering everthing (not everything) to China. but since China is booming in most aspects in military they are getting less and less keen on Russian equipments. The reason why China bought the Su-30 might of been the stop gap and need for a multirole fighter to be in the PLAAF for the time being. Until the indigineous J-10 could be ready for mass production, due to further modifications, refinining, prototypes and testing. I agree with Tphuang that Russia so called top of the line stuff to China isn't really top of the line, maybe it was during the time but no at present. The Super 10 I think will be more capable and advance than the F-35 but still tailing behind the F-22 by just a bit.

 

[crobato]

Sell them something good but not the best, to keep them away(technical); and a few years later sell them more advanced systems to make money again. Well if that was the intention, it went wrong ...

Let us not blame this completely on the Russians; this is a very common everyday business tactic, especially in the electronics and computer business. Look for no better example of this practice than Microsoft.

Russia only planned ahead for just a few years while the China planned ahead for what 10+ years. If Russia planned ahead they wouldn't be in this mess, and would still be selling China a load of stuff than today.

One cannot blame this completely on the Russians too. The Chinese had every opportunity to work on the long term just like the Indians did with the MKI. But in fact, the Chinese were only focusing on the short term because they had their own projects to fulfill. The Russian stuff were always meant to be stop gaps.

Another thing, When Ah Bian took office, there was a certain sense of urgency in Jiang Zhemin's administration for a near term show of force if CSB decides to misbehave, like crossing the line on Taiwan independence issues. Thus China needed soemthing in the short term, and so started quickly buying up Russian stuff. The MKK was designed with a lot of short cuts that was mean to get it working and certified quickly. It didn't really improve much on the proven but basic N001E radar, just added seperate ground attack systems.

The policies under HJT will be different from JZM. Should the Russians realize this, it is time to overhaul their approach in selling to China, since other than J-10 engines, there has not been a new and succesfull Rusarms sale delivered to China.

 

[Scratch]

Regarding that "top of the line" issue in the two countries. I think that Russia, with it's long experiance, is still ahead of China in some areas regarding high-end technology. But only in theories. When it comes to engineering and fielding a system (availability) China does that part better on it's on.
They just need to get russian thoretical knowledge and therefore are engaged in some arms deals, I think.

 

[mehdi]

Russians are more interested to get the butter out of China but it's not working now. The Russians need to be more practical in their approach with China cause they are doing it all wrong. In the near future the roles will be reversed as China will replace Russia as a world leader in exports of weapons.

 

[crobato]

Regarding that "top of the line" issue in the two countries. I think that Russia, with it's long experiance, is still ahead of China in some areas regarding high-end technology. But only in theories. When it comes to engineering and fielding a system (availability) China does that part better on it's on.
They just need to get russian thoretical knowledge and therefore are engaged in some arms deals, I think.

The Chinese have some very good theoriticists, what they don't have are aged mature engineering veterans lilke the Russians did. Engineers like Song Wen Cong who led the J-10 project isn't very common since much of his ilk went out in the Cultural Revolution. China has a new engineer class that grew out from teh eighties and the nineties but these are all young lions and geeks. But as their experience grows, they are expected to produce some breaking work.

The Russians have many mature engineers, but on the other hand, they are increasingly retired like the original designers of the Su-27. Sukhoi and MiG will probably have a much more difficult time now if they are asked to produce an entirely new airframe instead of constantly modifying Soviet Union era aircraft. The Russians are also bleeding talent to the commercial sector and many young Russian engineers are not going to work in the defense industry which is poorly paid. Back in the nineties, a lot of engineers left their firms because because being a taxi driver in Moscow pays better. One wonders how many Russian engineers went to China as individuals to find work there instead.

Another problem with the Russians is that many of the old projects are not exactly Russian, but Soviet Union. They had the collective help of other Soviet republics like the Ukraine and Belarussia. Once the SU splits, so did the talent pool.

Which is why I think the Russians have problems completing some of their projects or delivering contracts. I am very much in doubt they can do their PAK-FA without serious help from the Indians and the Chinese, and not just financial.

 

[Chengdu J-10]

The Russians are still relying on the older successful upgraded airframes for marketing for potential customers. As some people may have heard (lost the source) that Russia's pay to their military engineers were so low that their engineers quite their jobs and some went to China to help the Chinese in military. If this is correct from my recollection this is a serious issue for Russia but a gain for China. Referring to Crobato post early I wasn't intentionaly blaming it on Russia if you had this impression. I was trying to say that Russia had sort of dug itself into its own grave in a way. I wasn't talking about the projects and all that i was talking about its partial ban of military equipment to China but on the other hand allowed India to purchase them. And about the 10+ year thing that was reffering to the Soviet Union collapsing in the Cold War due to they weren't planning way ahead, and soon used up all their money. (poor planning) While China is progressing at a constant rate with enough money for many years ahead without collasping like the Soviet Union.

 

[mehdi]

Has anyone here know the specifications of the Su-30 Russia sold to Venezuela are they in the Chinese Su-30 MKK line of that of the Indian Su-30 MKI line.

 

[tphuang]

Has anyone here know the specifications of the Su-30 Russia sold to Venezuela are they in the Chinese Su-30 MKK line of that of the Indian Su-30 MKI line.

I believe they are mkk2 standard. Although, they are probably using Zhuk-MSE instead of N-001VEP. Also, not sure about the engine, it could be upgraded one.

 

[crobato]

I think they're still using the N001VEP.

There is no indication or news release to suggest that the Zhuk would have been. I am pretty sure Phazotron would more than eagerly jump to the publicity opportunity if this was true.