China Flanker Thread II

[kyuryu]

No problem, the Su-35 won`t be navalized, the MiG-29K was chosen due to lower size, any way as the article mention only 10 Su-33 remain airworthy, so the MiG-29K has been chosen in the same way the F-18 replaced the F-14.

China has no F-18 or MiG-29 equivalent so they had only the Su-33 as option.
J-10 is a single engine which will be harder to navalize than Su-33/J-15 since already Su-33 exist and China built flankers, plus a twin engined fighter has an extra engine for safety

True, but the J-15 also provides economies of scale and enhanced inter-operability with the J-11B and J-16 in terms of future upgrades to the radar, EW, as well as weapons and extensive operational experience that the PLAAF and PLANAF have gained over 20-odd years of operation, greatly simplifying logistics.

With a larger AESA radar and integration of longer range PL-12D / PL-21 ramjet and presumably full integration with the latest generation of AGM munitions, the J-15 represents a very formidable 'stop gap' until a dedicated 4th Gen platform matures sufficiently.

 

[delft]

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In late February 2012, the Russian Defence Ministry and the MiG Corp. signed the long-awaited contract for a 24-ship batch of MiG-29K/KUB multirole carrierborne fighters. Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and MiG Corp. Director General Sergei Korotkov signed the contract. Under the deal, the manufacturer shall have delivered 20 single-seat MiG-29K fighters and four two-seat MiG-29KUB combat trainers to the Russian Navy from 2013 to 2015. The warplanes will be fielded with the Northern Fleet’s carrierborne fighter air regiment and operated as part of the carrier air group (CAG) of the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier

Mention should be made that the Russian Defence Ministry was expected to have ordered the MiG-29K as far as two years ago, and then they believed the order would have been awarded in 2011. The main cause of the contract signature dragging its feet is said to have been the disagreements over the price of the fighter: the price offered by the military made the fighter unprofitable, the manufacturer said. Only late in January of this year did First Deputy Defence Minister Alexander Sukhorukov told the media that the disagreements had finally been settled and the contract would be signed in the near future, mentioning that 28 fighters were to be bought. The final version of the contract stipulated 24.

The first MiG-29K/KUBs are believed to be able to start flying as part of the Admiral Kuznetsov’s CAG in 2014 and will oust her Su-33 deck-based fighters gradually. The Su-33 production by KnAAPO was put on the backburner following the completion of 26 production-standard aircraft on 1996. Ten Su-33s took part in the Admiral Kuznetsov’s two-month-long combat training cruise to the North Atlantic and Mediterranean, which was wrapped up in mid-February 2012. Actually, they are virtually everything that remains airworthy of the aircraft of the type. Although KnAAPO continues Su-33 overhaul and life extension, the assigned life of the carrierborne fighters is shorter than that of the land-based versions due to the conditions of their employment, and the last of the Su-33s are expected to be decommissioned by the middle of the decade. Another important factor is that the Su-33’s weapons suite includes air-to-air missiles and ‘dumb’ air-to-surface weapons only, while that of the MiG-29K/KUB comprises a wide range of guided weapons in all classes and the two’s avionics suite is more advanced.

A few months ago we read that Adm. K would be modernized from 2014?-2020? Is that off? Why would you receive aircraft for a carrier that is on a visit to a dockyard of half a dozen years?

I would be unhappy to have one aircraft type replace another on board my carrier gradually. In the mean time I'd be cluttering up my maintenance facilities on board with the parts of an additional aircraft.

 

[Air Force Brat]

True, but the J-15 also provides economies of scale and enhanced inter-operability with the J-11B and J-16 in terms of future upgrades to the radar, EW, as well as weapons and extensive operational experience that the PLAAF and PLANAF have gained over 20-odd years of operation, greatly simplifying logistics.

With a larger AESA radar and integration of longer range PL-12D / PL-21 ramjet and presumably full integration with the latest generation of AGM munitions, the J-15 represents a very formidable 'stop gap' until a dedicated 4th Gen platform matures sufficiently.

The Chinese have choosen to build several different variants of the Flanker platform in order to fill out their various aircraft requirements, A2A, G2A, and a heavy strike version, because the Flanker is a very sound platform and has enough flexibility to perform all of these roles at a very competant level. The Russians have choosen a different path with the Mig 29K, because someone else has shared the developement expenses of upgrading the aircraft to carrier status. As many have pointed out the carrier beats up airframes in an alarming manner, the North Sea is not a tranquil body of water and that alone is enough to accelerate the wear and tear on the Su-33s, hence their replacement with the Mig 29K, not necessarily due to any deficiency in the Flanker platform. I and many others suspect that as the F-60 platform progresses through developement and on to the prototype stage that it will fill a fifth gen role in the Plan, of course depending on everyones economies and the perceived threat, and as the US, Russians, have found out, if you can get someone else to partner with you to share those expenses, well so much the better, hence the F-60 being promoted as an export aircraft? AFB

 

[Franklin]

A few months ago we read that Adm. K would be modernized from 2014?-2020? Is that off? Why would you receive aircraft for a carrier that is on a visit to a dockyard of half a dozen years?

I would be unhappy to have one aircraft type replace another on board my carrier gradually. In the mean time I'd be cluttering up my maintenance facilities on board with the parts of an additional aircraft.

The decision has already been taken that the 12 SU-33 Flanker-D and the 5 SU-25 Frogfoot planes on the Admiral Kuznetsov will be replaced by 28 MiG-29K Fulcrum-D. The Admiral Kuznetsov should have enter port for her mid life refit at the end of 2012 at least that is what i have read in 2010. Its going to be the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk that is going to carry out the refit but now it seems it has been pushed back to 2014. This is the same shipyard that is now working on the INS Vikramaditya. And considering the difficulties that the Vikramaditya project has faced over the last 9 years perhabs the Russian navy have some reluctants to put their sole aircraft carrier into their hands.

Perhabs the Russians should consider allowing Dalian shipyard to refit the Admiral Kuznetsov ! They can do it faster, cheaper and probably better.

 

[asif iqbal]

Perhabs the Russians should consider allowing Dailian shipyard to refit the Admiral Kuznetsov ! They can do it faster, cheaper and probably better.

Agreed!!

 

[Lion]

Agreed!!

Shall we included J-15 for Russians too? Russian complained reopen of Su-33 line will be expensive and therefore scrapped Su-33 for Kuznetsov. I bet China can offer Russia a better per unit price for J-15 with upgrade capabilities compare to antic Su-33..

 

[MiG-29]

The decision has already been taken that the 12 SU-33 Flanker-D and the 5 SU-25 Frogfoot planes on the Admiral Kuznetsov will be replaced by 28 MiG-29K Fulcrum-D. The Admiral Kuznetsov should have enter port for her mid life refit at the end of 2012 at least that is what i have read in 2010. Its going to be the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk that is going to carry out the refit but now it seems it has been pushed back to 2014. This is the same shipyard that is now working on the INS Vikramaditya. And considering the difficulties that the Vikramaditya project has faced over the last 9 years perhabs the Russian navy have some reluctants to put their sole aircraft carrier into their hands.

Perhabs the Russians should consider allowing Dailian shipyard to refit the Admiral Kuznetsov ! They can do it faster, cheaper and probably better.

The Kuznetsov is already an old aircraft carrier, there are plans for at least new nuclear powered 65000 tonnes carrier for 2020-2030 to replace it.

Meanwhile, according to publications in the naval press, the Command of the Navy continues to work on the project of Russia's first nuclear aircraft carrier. The naval command will send the project for further development until the end of the year.

By 2020, when the first Russian aircraft carrier is expected to be launched, the U.S. will have state-of-the-art Gerald Ford floating airfields, which will be almost twice as large as the Russian ship.

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The chinese carrier ex-Variag is also old and both aircraft carriers are obsolete compared to the new Western aircraft carriers.


In fact, China, Russia and India just use ex-soviet technology.

For Russia a new aircraft carrier with navalized T-50 will mean true new abilities, and China is the same the J-15 despite is modernization is just a soviet product modernized.

Same is India

 

[MiG-29]

Shall we included J-15 for Russians too? Russian complained reopen of Su-33 line will be expensive and therefore scrapped Su-33 for Kuznetsov. I bet China can offer Russia a better per unit price for J-15 with upgrade capabilities compare to antic Su-33..

Russia could build new Su-33 with new engines, but the main reason was the MiG-29K is smaller thus you can get more aircraft on the carrier.


The next stage of the Salut-conducted upgrade is to become the AL-31F-M2 engine, which thrust in special mode will increase to 14,500 kgf and the service life to 3,000 h or more.
The upgrade of the AL-31F engine does not involve modifying its dimensions and is aimed at retaining the feasibility of re-engining the whole of the Su-27 aircraft fleet without extra modifications to the airframe or engine nacelles”, Salut General Designer Gennady Skirdov said.

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Russia basicly opted for MiG-29Ks for size, lower price and to keep MiG busy

China did not have other option.

The J-8II is a delta with low STOL capability, same JH-7 or J-7.
J-10 could be the best option but as MiG-23 it is single engined.

J-15 was the only option for China but it was not the same case for Russia

 

[Franklin]

The Kuznetsov is already an old aircraft carrier, there are plans for at least new nuclear powered 65000 tonnes carrier for 2020-2030 to replace it.

Meanwhile, according to publications in the naval press, the Command of the Navy continues to work on the project of Russia's first nuclear aircraft carrier. The naval command will send the project for further development until the end of the year.

By 2020, when the first Russian aircraft carrier is expected to be launched, the U.S. will have state-of-the-art Gerald Ford floating airfields, which will be almost twice as large as the Russian ship.

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The chinese carrier ex-Variag is also old and both aircraft carriers are obsolete compared to the new Western aircraft carriers.


In fact, China, Russia and India just use ex-soviet technology.

For Russia a new aircraft carrier with navalized T-50 will mean true new abilities, and China is the same the J-15 despite is modernization is just a soviet product modernized.

Same is India

This conversation is getting off topic and if the mods wants to they can move this part to the Aircraft Carrier II thread.

What you said is in part true. That the Admiral Kuznetsov, Liaoning and the Vikramaditya are all based on 1970's and 1980's Soviet hulls and the lack of a steam cat and the small hangar deck sizes limits these carriers capabilities. But at the same time these old hulls have been refitted with new technologies that has increased the level of automation and digitization on these ships. This has in turn led to smaller crew sizes, better management of the ships day to day running, improved the combat capabilities and management, more comfort for the crew and longer endurance at sea.

I have posted on another thread that China and Russia should work together to build nuclear carriers. They should simply update the old 85000 ton Ulyanovsk class design and each bring in their own field of expertise. But because of the political reality this will never happen just like that the Admiral Kuznetsov will never be refitted in Dalian.

 

[tphuang]

Let's get back to flankers and move any aircraft carrier discussion to where it belongs.