China Flanker Thread II

[MiG-29]

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Hey Mig, will the Russian Navy use the upgraded Su-33 on their aircraft carrier force as well along with the MiG-29Ks? I'm just curious, thanks.

In late February 2012, the Russian Defence Ministry and the MiG Corp. signed the long-awaited contract for a 24-ship batch of MiG-29K/KUB multirole carrierborne fighters. Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and MiG Corp. Director General Sergei Korotkov signed the contract. Under the deal, the manufacturer shall have delivered 20 single-seat MiG-29K fighters and four two-seat MiG-29KUB combat trainers to the Russian Navy from 2013 to 2015. The warplanes will be fielded with the Northern Fleet’s carrierborne fighter air regiment and operated as part of the carrier air group (CAG) of the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier

Mention should be made that the Russian Defence Ministry was expected to have ordered the MiG-29K as far as two years ago, and then they believed the order would have been awarded in 2011. The main cause of the contract signature dragging its feet is said to have been the disagreements over the price of the fighter: the price offered by the military made the fighter unprofitable, the manufacturer said. Only late in January of this year did First Deputy Defence Minister Alexander Sukhorukov told the media that the disagreements had finally been settled and the contract would be signed in the near future, mentioning that 28 fighters were to be bought. The final version of the contract stipulated 24.

The first MiG-29K/KUBs are believed to be able to start flying as part of the Admiral Kuznetsov’s CAG in 2014 and will oust her Su-33 deck-based fighters gradually. The Su-33 production by KnAAPO was put on the backburner following the completion of 26 production-standard aircraft on 1996. Ten Su-33s took part in the Admiral Kuznetsov’s two-month-long combat training cruise to the North Atlantic and Mediterranean, which was wrapped up in mid-February 2012. Actually, they are virtually everything that remains airworthy of the aircraft of the type. Although KnAAPO continues Su-33 overhaul and life extension, the assigned life of the carrierborne fighters is shorter than that of the land-based versions due to the conditions of their employment, and the last of the Su-33s are expected to be decommissioned by the middle of the decade. Another important factor is that the Su-33’s weapons suite includes air-to-air missiles and ‘dumb’ air-to-surface weapons only, while that of the MiG-29K/KUB comprises a wide range of guided weapons in all classes and the two’s avionics suite is more advanced.

 

[tphuang]

Just a couple of comments on Xinhua articles in general regarding J-15 or the carrier project.

1) It's good to see China finally opening it's mouth and defend itself in some of these accussations. Normally, it gets accused of all sort of stuff and never says anything.

2) Just because Xinhua says something, doesn't necessarily make it a fact. It's like just because Loren Thompson writes something about Lockheed Martin, that doesn't necessarily make it a fact. What is Xinhua suppose to say? That J-15 is a piece of junk or that China only copies off the Russians? It's clearly not going to say that.

J-15 vs Su-33 comparison is clearly not a good comparison, since one aircraft is produced now whereas the other one was produced over 20 years ago. If SAC can't make it multi-role or have better avionics than late 80s Su-33, then it shouldn't be developing aircraft anymore. As for the proposed upgrades to Su-33s, they are just proposals. The Russians clearly are going for Mig-29K after they got India paying for all of the development cost. It was a good thing that China did not get more involved in Su-33 upgrade project, because they would've basically just paid for all the development costs for proposed upgrades for Su-33.

 

[Hyperwarp]

TS-100 computer represent 70's technology, SA-37 viggen computer able to perform300,000~ 370,000 cal./sec,F-15A (block-1),i believe around 500,000 cal./sec.
but Su-35 using latest COT ,her computing speed able to perform 5 billion/sec.(?)

1 Common Integrated Processor (CIP) in the F-22 can perform 10.5 billion and the F-22 can carry 3 of them if they decided to upgrade.

Way back in 1990 during the ATF competition YF-22 & YF-23 teams managed to excess 5 billion for their CIP.

Off-course this is all peanuts compared to today's commercial systems.

 

[Air Force Brat]

first of all, what's the big deal comparing a platform that's beginning its life cycle to one that's life cycle is, most likely, ending?

secondly, what do we really learn, and how is the discussion helped, by articles filled with comparative superlatives?

was this simply bait for mig-29, knowing that he would respond with nationalistic defensiveness?

russia's industrial and technological development has been historically hindered by a series of politico-economic decisions. we all understand this. china's development in these domains was similarly constrained until late 20th century decisions were made that served to foster, rather than hinder, development. we all understand this, as well. these are objective facts to which emotional responses are both irrational and unhelpful.

i'd think we'd all hope that russia's leadership would also begin to make decisions that foster, rather than hinder, their development. truth be told, when we approach competition as a zero sum game, we ignore the fact that the final score might only be 1-0. using soccer as an analogy, that 1-0 "victory" could come as the result of our opponent scoring an own goal. simply put, we could win without scoring a point. kind'a empty, huh?

the j-15 is currently an evolving program that will enjoy funding sufficient to exploit the latest relevant technologies. the su-33 is currently a terminal program that lacks funding to exploit the latest relevant technologies.

that's about it!

what's the basis for comparison?

correct?

The basis for the comparison is that the J-15 is an upgraded, updated Flanker, comparing Flankers of different generations is most helpfull to those who care about Flankers. As you pointed out the Su-33 could be upgraded, and has had some upgrades. Let me remind you that the AirFrame is the home of all these fancy electronics that help us out, they will not fly the airplane for you. Minus a helmet mounted sight and associated accouterments, an old head in an old Flanker is likely to get the drop on a new driver in a new Flanker. Mig understands the aerodynamics of the Flanker, and he is an above average student of the art of aerial combat, while he is opinionated, he is not always wrong, so lets lay off of him. A little respect for your elders is always helpfull, otherwise they will hand you your head in a handbasket. Since this is the Chinese Flanker thread, and the Sino Flankers are the offspring of the Russian Flanker, comparisons are inevitable and the only way we will be able to understand the upgrades. AFB

 

[Engineer]

Some official information about J-11B and J-11BS development.

There were three phases to J-11B/BS development. The first phase includes building supports for existing Su-27CK in the air force, building J-11 assembly line, serial production of J-11, adding and replacement of Russian systems on board the aircraft. The second phase is the Indigenization of J-11 through using domestic airframe, digital FBW, engines, logistic support, materials, standards, systems, and weapons, resulting in J-11B and J-11BS. The final phase is the creation of new variants such as J-15 and J-16.

The technical documents supplied by the Russians were incomplete, inconsistent, and full of errors. Prices charged on parts by the Russians were not the agreed upon amounts specified in the contracts. The Russians were extremely slow in response to questions and complaints from 601, which caused a lot of difficulties. From 601's point of view, the Russians did not fulfill the contracts.

There were a lot of issues with the early Su-27/J-11 so indigenization effort was prioritized to fix those problems first. Prototype WS-10 was already available at that time while J-10A is not, so J-11 was designated to carry the first WS-10 engine. The aircraft carried AL-31F in one engine pod and WS-10 on the other.

An important part of the process was the indigenization of materials used on the Su-27. The original goal was the use of 80% domestic materials. At 1999, this goal was already exceed reaching an unspecified amount (probably over 90%). The first flight of J-11B took place on December of 2003.

J-11Bs used indigenized version of Su-27's analog FBW system because of severe time constraint. Eventually, the development of quadruple redundancy FBW system was completed and fitted onto J-11BS.

This page lists the advantages of the J-11B/BS development. Among the list is the correction of imbalance in air power in Asia and achieving the ability of conducting strike on the first island chain.

A short biography on the lead engineer, but the most important part is that the crash of J-11BS in 2009 was not 601's fault.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Some official information about J-11B and J-11BS development.

There were three phases to J-11B/BS development. The first phase includes building supports for existing Su-27CK in the air force, building J-11 assembly line, serial production of J-11, adding and replacement of Russian systems on board the aircraft. The second phase is the Indigenization of J-11 through using domestic airframe, digital FBW, engines, logistic support, materials, standards, systems, and weapons, resulting in J-11B and J-11BS. The final phase is the creation of new variants such as J-15 and J-16.

The technical documents supplied by the Russians were incomplete, inconsistent, and full of errors. Prices charged on parts by the Russians were not the agreed upon amounts specified in the contracts. The Russians were extremely slow in response to questions and complaints from 601, which caused a lot of difficulties. From 601's point of view, the Russians did not fulfill the contracts.

There were a lot of issues with the early Su-27/J-11 so indigenization effort was prioritized to fix those problems first. Prototype WS-10 was already available at that time while J-10A is not, so J-11 was designated to carry the first WS-10 engine. The aircraft carried AL-31F in one engine pod and WS-10 on the other.



An important part of the process was the indigenization of materials used on the Su-27. The original goal was the use of 80% domestic materials. At 1999, this goal was already exceed reaching an unspecified amount (probably over 90%). The first flight of J-11B took place on December of 2003.



J-11Bs used indigenized version of Su-27's analog FBW system because of severe time constraint. Eventually, the development of quadruple redundancy FBW system was completed and fitted onto J-11B

This page lists the advantages of the J-11B/BS development. Among the list is the correction of imbalance in air power in Asia and achieving the ability of conducting strike on the first island chain.



A short biography on the lead engineer, but the most important part is that the crash of J-11BS in 2009 was not 601's fault.

And heres the real Flanker expert, often imitated or quoted but never outdone, Eng thanks for including some of the many upgrades to the Flanker platform, and to be quite frank, I have always been a Shenyang Flanker fan. While eng notes that the contract with the Russians was always somewhat lacking, even he will tell you the Russian Flanker is a good place to start, and a very sound design overall, not all aircraft can "grow as has the J-11-16s, the Flanker is a very flexible platform as well. I have no doubt that the quality control on the latest J-15, J-15S is outstanding, Shenyang has been unfairly maligned on a lot of levels, particularly by Chengdu fanboys, but the truth is both design houses are offering up very fine aircraft designs and producing older designs with many of the former deficiencies being addressed. It is hard work to fix other peoples oversights and with the modern cad/cam programs, lots of stuff that could at one time have honestly been called crude, can now be call pretty slick. That QC is now job one is obvious, when you can fly your unpainted prototype out to the carrier and do photo ops with her and she looks like a super-model in all her aerodynamic beauty, you are doing something right. AFB

 

[Lion]

Its good that this biography put an end to J-11b/bs capable of conducting strike mission as oppose to many other who think it can only carry out Air To Air mission just like how huitong website rubbish about J-11b/bs.

J-16 will be a heavy weight strike fighter.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Its good that this biography put an end to J-11b/bs capable of conducting strike mission as oppose to many other who think it can only carry out Air To Air mission just like how huitong website rubbish about J-11b/bs.

J-16 will be a heavy weight strike fighter.

Not too mention that Fanboys are better source of information on Chinese military advances than so called expert. For all of us who follow the Chinese development for years we can attest to that.

Nice that the Chinese set the record straight which they should do to begin with and not keeping quiet while the pundit throw mud at them

 

[Equation]

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In late February 2012, the Russian Defence Ministry and the MiG Corp. signed the long-awaited contract for a 24-ship batch of MiG-29K/KUB multirole carrierborne fighters. Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and MiG Corp. Director General Sergei Korotkov signed the contract. Under the deal, the manufacturer shall have delivered 20 single-seat MiG-29K fighters and four two-seat MiG-29KUB combat trainers to the Russian Navy from 2013 to 2015. The warplanes will be fielded with the Northern Fleet’s carrierborne fighter air regiment and operated as part of the carrier air group (CAG) of the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier

Mention should be made that the Russian Defence Ministry was expected to have ordered the MiG-29K as far as two years ago, and then they believed the order would have been awarded in 2011. The main cause of the contract signature dragging its feet is said to have been the disagreements over the price of the fighter: the price offered by the military made the fighter unprofitable, the manufacturer said. Only late in January of this year did First Deputy Defence Minister Alexander Sukhorukov told the media that the disagreements had finally been settled and the contract would be signed in the near future, mentioning that 28 fighters were to be bought. The final version of the contract stipulated 24.

The first MiG-29K/KUBs are believed to be able to start flying as part of the Admiral Kuznetsov’s CAG in 2014 and will oust her Su-33 deck-based fighters gradually. The Su-33 production by KnAAPO was put on the backburner following the completion of 26 production-standard aircraft on 1996. Ten Su-33s took part in the Admiral Kuznetsov’s two-month-long combat training cruise to the North Atlantic and Mediterranean, which was wrapped up in mid-February 2012. Actually, they are virtually everything that remains airworthy of the aircraft of the type. Although KnAAPO continues Su-33 overhaul and life extension, the assigned life of the carrierborne fighters is shorter than that of the land-based versions due to the conditions of their employment, and the last of the Su-33s are expected to be decommissioned by the middle of the decade. Another important factor is that the Su-33’s weapons suite includes air-to-air missiles and ‘dumb’ air-to-surface weapons only, while that of the MiG-29K/KUB comprises a wide range of guided weapons in all classes and the two’s avionics suite is more advanced.

After the decommission of the Su-33s carrier borne fighters towards the middle of the decade, are the Russian Navy plans to replace them with the carrier version of the new Su-35 perhaps? I hope so, such a beautiful plane. Thanks for the update MiG!

 

[MiG-29]

After the decommission of the Su-33s carrier borne fighters towards the middle of the decade, are the Russian Navy plans to replace them with the carrier version of the new Su-35 perhaps? I hope so, such a beautiful plane. Thanks for the update MiG!

No problem, the Su-35 won`t be navalized, the MiG-29K was chosen due to its smaller size, any way as the article mentions only 10 Su-33 remain airworthy, so the MiG-29K has been chosen in the same way the F-18 was chosen to replace the F-14.

China has no F-18 or MiG-29 equivalent so they had only the Su-33 as an option.
J-10 is a single engined aircraft which will be harder to navalize than Su-33/J-15 since already Su-33 exists and China builds flankers, plus a twin engined fighter has an extra engine for safety