China Flanker Thread II

[kroko]

So as a supplier of technology to China, they have contacts with the Chinese manufacture industry enough to be reliable sources and since he was a head designer of Saturn and a designer of jet engines he is an authority.

I dont buy that. Just because you have contacts with some people in the industry, doesnt mean you have acess to its most sensitive (critical) information. And WS-10 is the most sensitive information of that industry.

If you think he is wrong it does not matter to me

If that is so, they why do you keep posting that ws-10 comes from AL-31? because it seems that no one in this forum agrees with you.

Well well we haven't heard a while from our friend Pinkov Here is the latest from his Kanwa

How reliable is kanwa ?

 

[MiG-29]

I dont buy that. Just because you have contacts with some people in the industry, doesnt mean you have acess to its most sensitive (critical) information. And WS-10 is the most sensitive information of that industry.



If that is so, they why do you keep posting that ws-10 comes from AL-31? because it seems that no one in this forum agrees with you.

First like you said, in this forum, most people do not agree with me, what about others?
Of course more people agrees with me.

But that is senseless the truth is not a democracy but a dictatorship, truth is truth.

Second i am not going to convince you, i know that, and i know why.

Third my point is not to convince you but inform you.


Inform you is give you the freedom of chosing and respect your opinion, my opinion is Russia has a point, the rest time will tell.

But Chepkin is not a guy in a forum, but a jet engine designer and a head engineer from Saturn plus he designed a very advanced engine and he praised the Chinese engineering skills, he is one of the head designers of 117S and 117 so fro my point of view his opinion is much more worthed than any forum myth

 

[MiG-29]

Well well we haven't heard a while from our friend Pinkov Here is the latest from his Kanwa
first posted by SGW06 from keypub. I quote his post

Russian arms saleman claimed China dont think very high about Su-35
In his August/2012 issue of Kanwa defence, he basically claimed two things:

1) According to his Chinese sources, the Chinese side is not impressed about the performance of Su-35, and there is no Chinese sources he could find to support the idea the Chinese show any interests or confidences in Su-35.

2)According to his Chinese source, the Chinese side now want to sell T/R module for the Airborne AESA radars to Russia, the Chinese side claimed their T/R modules performed better, being more capable, consume less power, generating less heat and been cheaper to built comparing its russian counterparts.

3)According to the boss of Inistute of Radar and Electronic device of AVIC (雷电院), Chinese believe now their radars technologies are clearly superior to their Europe counterpart, and only USA has a slight lead there, in his article, he has not wasted any of his time on discussing Russian radars technoglies, suggesting Russian radars are not on his horizon.

According to Victor Mihailovich Chepkin J-20 can not be called a fifth generation fighter yet because the best Chinese engine is like Al-31 and based on it and says we have (we russians) a true fifth generation engine
he says

Их лучший двигатель скопирован с нашего "АЛ-31Ф". У нас же действительно двигатель 5-го поколения,




— Не потеряем, потому что такого самолета как у нас, у китайцев нет и в ближайшее время не будет! Они говорят, что сделали самолет 5-го поколения, но говорить можно что угодно… Их лучший двигатель скопирован с нашего "АЛ-31Ф". У нас же действительно двигатель 5-го поколения, и он по всем своим параметрам, по тяге, по удельному расходу топлива соответствует 5-му поколению. Я приоткрою тайну и скажу, что у нас фактически уже есть два двигателя 5-го поколения. Второй, который сейчас условно называется "тип 30", уже испытывался в полете на истребителе "Т-50". В дальнейшем ему, наверное, дадут имя "АЛ-…". По своим параметрам он на 15-25 процентов превосходит "117-й".

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Everyone thinks we have better technology, but your source has no names, a unknown Russian source, my has a true jet designer boasting about its engine publicly, i can name the source, in fact i can tell you Russia has type 30 engine which already flew on T-50 and is 15-25 % more powerful than 117

plus RT news claims


In 2010, when Russia’s Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov was on visit to China, Beijing proposed to buy 117C engines, but the offer was turned down

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that is common, howevers the Europeans will laugh at such statements and the Russians will say we have really good electronics.

the truth of machines of war is they are tested in war or in the ability to deterr.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

How reliable is kanwa ?

How reliable is he? Well he got connection with Russian defense industry and actually his track record when it come to Russian armament industry is quite good. He err when it come to prediction of the Chinese defense industry. Many times he was proven quite wrong.

But we know that China has a thriving electronic industry Like Cell Phone and the internet infrastructure. In fact Huawei will soon ecclipse Erickson as the largest Internet infrastructure manufacturer. I guess this year .

We also know that Russian have trouble mass producing their AESA prototype radar becaue they can't bring the cost T/R module cheap enough We know this from the Cidex trade show that show case Chinese prowess in electronic industry. I found the reference

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2) Chinese Defence Products Today: State-of-the Art

Chinese defence products were once thought of as being moderately capable copies of previous-generation hardware that contained attributes of Russian, European and Israeli designs. Some of those bloodlines can still be seen in their designs, but the products now being seen at an expo like CIDEX show that Chinese firms have capabilities that approach first world industrial, state-of-the-art levels of sophistication.

In the 1990s, when the Russian defence was in danger of drying up and closing its doors due to an almost complete collapse in any funding from their own government, it was China that saved the day. China bought billions in military hardware from Russia, but it also sent its engineers, designers and technicians to study inside of Russian industry to learn how the weapons it was purchasing had been developed in the first place.

This transfer of technological know-how, plus some enormous investments by the Chinese military into its state-owned industries (what more than one Russian has referred to as “uncontrolled and rampant modernisation”) has produced a defence electronics industry that far outstrips the size and capacity of that which existed in Russia when Chinese industry first began their cooperation with Moscow in the early 1990s.

Today the former students (the Chinese) have become the masters. Chinese industry now has the ability to produce components that the Russian electronics industry (after almost two decades of no investment by their government) is no longer capable of either designing or manufacturing. The initial failure rates on the production of transmit/receive (T/R) modules for the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars being designed for the Mikoyan MiG-35 and the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA 5th-generation fighter, for example, were so high that it would have bankrupted any western firm involved in a similar programme.

Not surprisingly, this year’s CIDEX show saw groups of Russian specialists going through the halls and looking for components that they could source out of China to be utilised in Russian-designed weapon systems. Russian specialists will point out that they are now at a huge disadvantage to the Chinese in two very significant respects.

One is that the commitment by the central government in resources to the defence electronics sector is both sustained and serious. “They can take a field where there is nothing but flat land and wild grass,” said one Russian company representative, “and the next thing you know there is a full-blown factory or design centre there turning out a world-class product.”

 

[Lion]

How reliable is kanwa ?

True, Kanwa can be crap sometimes. But Kanwa is quite famous for being bias against Chinese military development. When Kanwa also reported Chinese is better is some other who is more establish. This more or less show the truth cannot be twisted and hide. And need to report correctly. Because the obvious is there.

Just like Gordon Chang start to say China has already reach superpower status. Then it must be..

 

[hmmwv]

I did not know you are a jet engine designer as good as Chepkin the guy designed the 117 engine and he said Я его видел it means i have seen it, to have seen it means he has travelled to China because he means he saw it.

So a true jet engineer knows more than repeating mythlore of WS-10

He's a Russian engineer designer so it doesn't matter how good he is he's limited to the information given to him. Maybe he saw Taihang on TV, who knows, did he specifically said he have examined Taihang in person?

 

[Lion]

Chinese Type093 SSN Submarine is an fine example of Russian media spinning the story and fan by western fanboys. They claimed Rubin give consultant to Chinese SSN which is denied by Rubin personnel. Turn out the submarine never look like the Victor class SSN which they claimed influence or shared technolgy. And added to the final nail is Rubin personnel request tour onboard Type 093 SSN but was outright turn down.. Hahaha.. Fancy being the consultant and not even a chance to see yr influence? Conclusion- pack of lies and story by Russian.
And Type 093 SSN is an outright Chinese indigneous effort and product. Same as the J-20 or WS-10A engine.

 

[MiG-29]

.

Not surprisingly, this year’s CIDEX show saw groups of Russian specialists going through the halls and looking for components that they could source out of China to be utilised in Russian-designed weapon systems. Russian specialists will point out that they are now at a huge disadvantage to the Chinese in two very significant respects.

One is that the commitment by the central government in resources to the defence electronics sector is both sustained and serious. “They can take a field where there is nothing but flat land and wild grass,” said one Russian company representative, “and the next thing you know there is a full-blown factory or design centre there turning out a world-class product.”[/U][/B]

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The further development of these capabilities was confirmed. The optical channels tests have begun.

The radar has been developed by the Moscow-based Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design using locally made elements of nanotechnology. It incorporates advanced antenna systems technology with electronically controlled beam.

The unification of the elements of design and engineering solutions allows creation of the antenna arrays for the modernization of radar systems for aircraft and air defense systems on the basis of the developed AFAR.



the news are from Sukhoi, according to them PAKFA has a domestic radar.


To do not stray so far from the topic otherwise open a new thread.
While J-11B and WS-10 are great advances in Chinese technologies, Russia has continue to upgrade the Flanker technology in radar and engine technology.

Su-34 is an fighter-bomber that has no equivalent in China and Su-35 too.


J-11B also represents an advance over the early Su-27SK kits Russia delivered but the Russians also upgraded their Flankers, and have started upgrading their technology and they have invested in many areas enough to say they are in the forefront of aviation technology

 

[MiG-29]

He's a Russian engineer designer so it doesn't matter how good he is he's limited to the information given to him. Maybe he saw Taihang on TV, who knows, did he specifically said he have examined Taihang in person?

what you choose to believe is your personal option, only remember Saturn does not think WS-10 did not include technologies copied
from Al-31, the rest is up to you


the reason they say they created 117S is because they knew China`s J-11B and WS-10 could compete with Sukhoi products in the world markets, so according to them they created a better jet and they sent Alexarder Miheev to talk to China about russian weapons built in China without license like J-11B.

 

[Schumacher]

How reliable is he? Well he got connection with Russian defense industry and actually his track record when it come to Russian armament industry is quite good. He err when it come to prediction of the Chinese defense industry. Many times he was proven quite wrong.

But we know that China has a thriving electronic industry Like Cell Phone and the internet infrastructure. In fact Huawei will soon ecclipse Erickson as the largest Internet infrastructure manufacturer. I guess this year .

We also know that Russian have trouble mass producing their AESA prototype radar becaue they can't bring the cost T/R module cheap enough We know this from the Cidex trade show that show case Chinese prowess in electronic industry. I found the reference

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2) Chinese Defence Products Today: State-of-the Art
.....................

It's well established that China is ahead of Russia in avionics and radars at the very least.
J16 will be equipped with AESA while Su35 still uses PESA. Only with their silent Flanker T50 will they start to use AESA and only time will tell how much success they'll have with that.
TVC is the only thing Su35 has which J16 doesn't and the only certainty with TVC on a Flanker we know of is that it'll be a better crowd-pleaser in air shows..