China Flanker Thread II

[MiG-29]

how can this guy know that ? unless he got acess to the chinese aircraft engine projects. I very much doubt that china would allow any foreigner acess to that information.




There were talk that the first batch of J-10B would use AL-31. And we dont know for sure what is J-20´s engine.

This guy, is Victor Mihailovich Chepkin, he was one of the head designers of jet engines such as D-30F6 and has worked in many jey engine projets as chief engineer, among them the 117S and 117 that power Su-35 and T-50.

He worked for NPO Saturn as General director



Okay how he knows?

Что касается двигателя, это не точная копия. Я его видел. Китайцы использовали и свои разработки, но на 70 процентов это наш "АЛ-31Ф", автоматика вся наша. Покупать лицензию на производство двигателя они не стали, лишь купили лицензию на ремонт двигателя (естественно со всеми чертежами). А поскольку ремонт и производство, по сути, очень близки, китайцы все тщательно изучили и самостоятельно освоили производство.

He says it is not an exact copy, but the Chinese based the WS-10 in our Al-31 and 70% of the WS-10 technology is basicly based upon Al-31`s technology.

Okay he goes into says В Китае очень грамотные инженеры, и то, что они освоят эту продукцию

That means basicly a priase of the Chinese engineers by saying in China they have very competent engineers and they will master the manufacture of jet engine design

So as a supplier of technology to China, they have contacts with the Chinese manufacture industry enough to be reliable sources and since he was a head designer of Saturn and a designer of jet engines he is an authority.



So of course he knows how good must be J-11B in terms of performance
So according to Victor Mihailovich Chepkin, Saturn gave them enough documentation for the Chinese to copy the Al-31 technologies and he goes into say
Покупать лицензию на производство двигателя они не стали, лишь купили лицензию на ремонт двигателя (естественно со всеми чертежами). А поскольку ремонт и производство, по сути, очень близки



The Chinese did not get the license production of Al-31, they only got the license for maintainance of Al-31, (including all the blueprints) the maintainance documentation is almost like the manufacture documentation

 

[MiG-29]

LMAO, I didn't know AL31 has a core from F101/CFM56.

I did not know you are a jet engine designer as good as Chepkin the guy designed the 117 engine and he said Я его видел it means i have seen it, to have seen it means he has travelled to China because he means he saw it.

So a true jet engineer knows more than repeating mythlore of WS-10

 

[Schumacher]

I did not know you are a jet engine designer as good as Chepkin the guy designed the 117 engine and he said Я его видел it means i have seen it, to have seen it means he has travelled to China because he means he saw it.

So a true jet engineer knows more than repeating mythlore of WS-10

He may be a jet engineer but more importantly he's one from Russia so he's likely to be speaking out for Russian interests rather than the truth. We have seen many claims by Russian 'experts' on their tech which turn out to be far from the truth when examined by independent third parties.

 

[Engineer]

This guy, is Victor Mihailovich Chepkin, he was one of the head designers of jet engines such as D-30F6 and has worked in many jey engine projets as chief engineer, among them the 117S and 117 that power Su-35 and T-50.

He worked for NPO Saturn as General director



Okay how he knows?

Что касается двигателя, это не точная копия. Я его видел. Китайцы использовали и свои разработки, но на 70 процентов это наш "АЛ-31Ф", автоматика вся наша. Покупать лицензию на производство двигателя они не стали, лишь купили лицензию на ремонт двигателя (естественно со всеми чертежами). А поскольку ремонт и производство, по сути, очень близки, китайцы все тщательно изучили и самостоятельно освоили производство.

He says it is not an exact copy, but the Chinese based the WS-10 in our Al-31 and 70% of the WS-10 technology is basicly based upon Al-31`s technology.

Okay he goes into says В Китае очень грамотные инженеры, и то, что они освоят эту продукцию

That means basicly a priase of the Chinese engineers by saying in China they have very competent engineers and they will master the manufacture of jet engine design

So as a supplier of technology to China, they have contacts with the Chinese manufacture industry enough to be reliable sources and since he was a head designer of Saturn and a designer of jet engines he is an authority.



So of course he knows how good must be J-11B in terms of performance
So according to Victor Mihailovich Chepkin, Saturn gave them enough documentation for the Chinese to copy the Al-31 technologies and he goes into say
Покупать лицензию на производство двигателя они не стали, лишь купили лицензию на ремонт двигателя (естественно со всеми чертежами). А поскольку ремонт и производство, по сути, очень близки



The Chinese did not get the license production of Al-31, they only got the license for maintainance of Al-31, (including all the blueprints) the maintainance documentation is almost like the manufacture documentation

Unfortunately, Mr. Victor Mihailovich Chepkin is not an authority on Chinese engines, and we already know his claim about WS-10A having 70% heritage from AL-31F is incorrect. This illustrates why Russian sources have little credibility. Repeating the same old fairy tale about the WS-10A being derived from AL-31F is not going to make it true.

The WS-10A both have 3 fan and 9 compressor stages, 1 high pressure and 2 low pressure turbines. Those 9 compressor stage and 1 high pressure turbine stages are considered as

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:

The core of the CFM-56 turbofan that powered early Boeing-737 transports sold to China in the 1980s influenced early engine core designs for the Taihang.

The remaining 3 fan and 2 turbine stages from WS-10A are completely different from the 4 fan and 1 turbine setup on the AL-31F.

The fact that the core being derived from CFM-56 constitutes as 30%~40% difference. The fact that the low pressure stages are also different makes up another 30%~40% difference. These account for 60% difference to an 80% difference, and quite clearly contradicts the fairy tale from Victor Mihailovich Chepkin.

 

[Engineer]

I did not know you are a jet engine designer as good as Chepkin the guy designed the 117 engine and he said Я его видел it means i have seen it, to have seen it means he has travelled to China because he means he saw it.

So a true jet engineer knows more than repeating mythlore of WS-10

Lies are still lies no matter who tells it. A statement made by a jet engineer who has a vested interest in selling his jet engines isn't automatically the truth, especially when his statement is contradicted by multiple sources.

 

[Quickie]

Deleted double post.

 

[Quickie]

Look i know you did not read the links i have provided otherwise you will know what Victor Mihailovich Chenkin thinks about WS-10.

To start i do not think you even know who is Victor Mihailovich Chepkin

В.М. Чепкин родился в 1933 году.
После окончания в 1957 году Московского авиационного института был направлен в Пермское моторостроительное КБ, где прошел путь от инженера-конструктора до главного конструктора. Под руководством П. Соловьева, он был главным конструктором выдающегося по своим параметрам двигателя "Д-30Ф6" для самого быстрого в мире истребителя-перехватчика "МиГ-31", способного летать со скоростью более 3000 км/ч.

В 1983 году Виктор Михайлович был назначен заместителем министра авиационной промышленности СССР по вопросам двигателестроения.

С августа 1984 года — генеральный конструктор — генеральный директор НПО "Сатурн" им. А. М. Люльки. Под его руководством успешно завершены конструкторско-доводочные работы и проведены государственные испытания турбореактивного двигателя "АЛ-31Ф". Виктор Михайлович возглавил работы по созданию турбореактивного двигателя пятого поколения "АЛ 41Ф" и модернизации "АЛ-31Ф".

this says he was born in 1933 worked for Perm engines on jet engine designs, later on the MiG-31`s engine D30F6, for Solovyov, worked as Chief designer in Saturn on the Al-41F.


So he is really a jet aircraft designer to give you an idea D-30F6 has a thrust yield of 15 tonnes, but he worked on other jet engines.
Китайский самолет — это точная копия нашего?

— Что касается двигателя, это не точная копия. Я его видел. Китайцы использовали и свои разработки, но на 70 процентов это наш "АЛ-31Ф", автоматика вся наша. Покупать лицензию на производство двигателя они не стали, лишь купили лицензию на ремонт двигателя (естественно со всеми чертежами). А поскольку ремонт и производство, по сути, очень близки, китайцы все тщательно изучили и самостоятельно освоили производство. В Китае очень грамотные инженеры, и то, что они освоят эту продукцию, у меня лично никаких сомнений не было. Поэтому выход у нас один — сделать лучше. И мы сделали двигатель "117С". Пусть теперь они за нами погоняются!



He does praise the Chinese engineers skills

in fact he says " В Китае очень грамотные инженеры, и то, что они освоят эту продукцию"

In China they have very competent engineers and they will master the production of jet engines

Что касается двигателя, это не точная копия. Я его видел. Китайцы использовали и свои разработки, но на 70 процентов это наш "АЛ-31Ф

he says yes WS-10 is not an exact copy of the Al-31 but the Chinese used Al-31 in the development of WS-10, in fact WS-10 is 70% our Al-31

This says the 117 engines increased the thrust of Al-31 20% without gaining weight
Накопленный таким образом за десять лет уникальнейший опыт мы опрокинули на модернизацию "АЛ-31Ф". В итоге родился двигатель "117". Даже простое приложение имеющихся наработок дало удивительный результат — тяга двигателя возросла с 12,5 тонн до 15. Не прибавив ни грамма веса, мы увеличили тягу на 20 процентов!

now you are just boasting without knowing, the Russians have improve Al-31 a great way beyond what China has

For that reason while J-11B might have higher thrust than J-11, the performance gains are not as high as Su-35 has over the original T-10S

Click here for link

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First of all, the link went nowhere but just stopped at a homepage, but don't bother if it's going to be the kind of info you've just mentioned. As to the claim that the WS-10A is 70% of AL-31, we now know that the Russian media may not be entirely to blame since the source of the inaccurate information can also come from Russian sources that are supposedly authoritative.

The thing is, it's widely known that the WS-10A is based on the CFM56 engine core with very different fan, compressor, turbine stages to the flanker engine. It even has an afterburner (orange to pink) that's closer in colour to the orange afterburner of turbofan jet engines which the CFM56 core is based on.

 

[MiG-29]

First of all, the link went nowhere but just stopped at a homepage, but don't bother if it's going to be the kind of info you've just mentioned. As to the claim that the WS-10A is 70% of AL-31, we now know that the Russian media may not be entirely to blame since the source of the inaccurate information can also come from Russian sources that are supposedly authoritative.

The thing is, it's widely known that the WS-10A is based on the CFM56 engine core with very different fan, compressor, turbine stages to the flanker engine. It even has an afterburner (orange to pink) that's closer in colour to the orange afterburner of turbofan jet engines which the CFM56 core is based on.

Look most forum analysis of the WS-10 mythlore, are most of the time shallow and without a real technical knowledge.

My intention to show you the link is not to convince or not convince you that WS-10 is or not based upon Al-31 technology.

My unique intention was Show you that in Russia they have a different opinion, in fact Saturn`s head designer in the 117 engine program, Victor Chepkin affirms that the WS-10 used the Al-31 maintainancetechnical documention provided by the Russians to design WS-10 but he says China built an engine based upon Al-31 but is not a complete copy, .


He is a real engineer, a guy who provides to China engines Al-31 for both J-11/Su-27 and J-10.
A guy who really knows the blueprints of Al-31 and knows what information China got from Russia.


The rest is up to you, you won`t stop the Russian media from saying that.

However you have the freedom of disagreeing with him, but in terms of technical knowledge he really knows Al-31 well to see if WS-10 has some technical similarities to Al-31, plus he has the information that allows him to say what he says.

If you think he is wrong it does not matter to me, my intention was only to show you not everyone agrees with the version of the WS-10 being based only upon CFM56

 

[Air Force Brat]

He may be a jet engineer but more importantly he's one from Russia so he's likely to be speaking out for Russian interests rather than the truth. We have seen many claims by Russian 'experts' on their tech which turn out to be far from the truth when examined by independent third parties.

Ya know guys, as a "Westerner", the Russians and Chinese have worked well together since their little misadventure in Korea, all this yakking back and forth is propaganda, and nobody who knows puts any money or faith in either side telling the truth, and that is the truth. The US military is an open book compared to either China or Russia, because of the freedom of information act, almost everything they say or do is "vetted" by a very critical liberal media, who thinks the US military is the enemy, and hates the US military far more than Russia or China. If somebody in the US military "breaks wind", the US media is on it in a heartbeat. So, lets get this straight, the Russians sold Flankers to China, can we agree on that? OK, the Chinese then built the Flanker under license? OK, then the Chinese decided to "improve" the Flanker and claim its not a Flanker? Right, Right! If China and Russia rip on another off, so what? If they make up stories to "legitamize" their actions, so what? A Flanker is a Flanker is a Flanker! so lets get this thread back on track, there is some truth to what both sides are saying, so lets play nice together and try to be a little more honest with each other and show ourselves to be men of character and try to show a little respect to one another. Brat Out!

 

[Skywatcher]

Look most forum analysis of the WS-10 mythlore, are most of the time shallow and without a real technical knowledge.

My intention to show you the link is not to convince or not convince you that WS-10 is or not based upon Al-31 technology.

My unique intention was Show you that in Russia they have a different opinion, in fact Saturn`s head designer in the 117 engine program, Victor Chepkin affirms that the WS-10 used the Al-31 maintainancetechnical documention provided by the Russians to design WS-10 but he says China built an engine based upon Al-31 but is not a complete copy, .

And if they have a different opinion in Russia, it will be equally as valid as saying that the moon is made out of green cheese or that dinosaurs did live 6,000 years ago.

In his position, Chepkin has about as much relevance as Song Wengcon in commenting on if Lockheed Martin designed the YF-22 with corporate espionage derived information from Northrup Grumman.