China Flanker Thread II

[Quickie]

Look most forum analysis of the WS-10 mythlore, are most of the time shallow and without a real technical knowledge.

My intention to show you the link is not to convince or not convince you that WS-10 is or not based upon Al-31 technology.

My unique intention was Show you that in Russia they have a different opinion, in fact Saturn`s head designer in the 117 engine program, Victor Chepkin affirms that the WS-10 used the Al-31 maintainancetechnical documention provided by the Russians to design WS-10 but he says China built an engine based upon Al-31 but is not a complete copy, .


He is a real engineer, a guy who provides to China engines Al-31 for both J-11/Su-27 and J-10.
A guy who really knows the blueprints of Al-31 and knows what information China got from Russia.


The rest is up to you, you won`t stop the Russian media from saying that.

However you have the freedom of disagreeing with him, but in terms of technical knowledge he really knows Al-31 well to see if WS-10 has some technical similarities to Al-31, plus he has the information that allows him to say what he says.

If you think he is wrong it does not matter to me, my intention was only to show you not everyone agrees with the version of the WS-10 being based only upon CFM56

Of course I can't stop the Russian media from saying anything, but we've seen how one Russian media mixed things up when it claimed that the JF-17 was a clone of the Mig-29. Likewise, it's quite possible the Russian official was commenting on the rebuilt variant of the AL-31 but the media got confused with it with the WS-10A.

And you can't simply accused something as a myth/folklore without knowing anything about it yourself or at least do some research. Some of the information on the WS-10A came from this Jane's article (the introductory part only) which itself based its write-up on Chinese official sources.

LM WS10A Tai Hang (China), Aero-engines - Turbofan

Overview
An all-Chinese replacement for the Russian AL-31F in J-10 and J-11 fighters and the power plant for a potential new fighter

Description
In December 2002 Yihong Chang, the Chinese correspondent of l Jane's Defence Weekly, reported that the Shenyang Aircraft Company was well advanced with the development of a new heavyweight fighter, with stealth qualities. He said that propulsion could be provided by a pair of Liming WS10A engines. Such an aircraft has been known to be under development for many years, and it appeared in the 1990s in Jane's All the World's Aircraft as the 'XXJ'. In the 2004- 05 edition of Jane's All the World's Aircraft the WS10A is suggested as being the engine of a new fighter revealed in the form of tunnel models in a 2002 film published by AVIC. The designation covering this project is now J-X.The long and convoluted history of the WS10 -- named Tai Hang after a Chinese mountain -- was at least superficially revealed in November 2005, in a feature article in the officially published Chinese Aviation. This enabled a more definitive history to be written by a Chinese correspondent of Jane's, Jonathon Weng, and what follows is based on his work. Weng confirmed that the WS10 was originally derived from the WS6 (see separate entry). This engine was abandoned at the start of the 1980s, and 606 Design Institute (the previously unknown AVIC I designation of the Shenyang Engine Design and Research Institute) began work on a derived design, called in English the High-Performance Propulsion System Preliminary Design (HPPSPD). From the outset, this incorporated features of the CFM56 civil turbofan, newly

What's there to argue anymore?

The WS-10, when compared to the AL-31, has a different engine core (in relation to its number of fans, compressors, turbines blades), a different diameter as indicated by its noticeably wider nozzles and even an AB with different colour when compared to the flanker engine.

 

[Engineer]

Look most forum analysis of the WS-10 mythlore, are most of the time shallow and without a real technical knowledge.

My intention to show you the link is not to convince or not convince you that WS-10 is or not based upon Al-31 technology.

My unique intention was Show you that in Russia they have a different opinion, in fact Saturn`s head designer in the 117 engine program, Victor Chepkin affirms that the WS-10 used the Al-31 maintainancetechnical documention provided by the Russians to design WS-10 but he says China built an engine based upon Al-31 but is not a complete copy, .


He is a real engineer, a guy who provides to China engines Al-31 for both J-11/Su-27 and J-10.
A guy who really knows the blueprints of Al-31 and knows what information China got from Russia.


The rest is up to you, you won`t stop the Russian media from saying that.

However you have the freedom of disagreeing with him, but in terms of technical knowledge he really knows Al-31 well to see if WS-10 has some technical similarities to Al-31, plus he has the information that allows him to say what he says.

If you think he is wrong it does not matter to me, my intention was only to show you not everyone agrees with the version of the WS-10 being based only upon CFM56

Russian media can say anything they want, but they have little credibility. Victor Chepkin having a different opinion on the origin of the WS-10A does not make him right, it only illustrates his ignorance on the matter. Based on the published internal arrangement of WS-10A alone, we can already tell there is substantial difference to the AL-31F thus contradicting Chepkin's statement about 70% heritage from AL-31F. Dimensions of the WS-10A also differs to the AL-31F. Furthermore, the WS-10 project was launched in 1986, with the technology demonstrator achieved first power by the end of 1992. Acquisition of Su-27 and AL-31F did not happen until 1991. The absurdity of claiming WS-10A originated from AL-31F is obvious.

So, Victor Chepkin's opinion has little credibility. Additionally, whether you agree or not, the core of WS-10A came from CFM-56. Consequently many engine parameters are much closer to F-110 engine than AL-31F.

What is also a fact is that China no longer relies on Russia for engines on new built fighters. With WS-10A available, China is not going to buy the Su-35 or 117S engine, and excuses are not going to alter such fact.

 

[Hyperwarp]

...
My unique intention was Show you that in Russia they have a different opinion, in fact Saturn`s head designer in the 117 engine program, Victor Chepkin affirms that the WS-10 used the Al-31 maintainancetechnical documention provided by the Russians to design WS-10 but he says China built an engine based upon Al-31 but is not a complete copy,
...

What is Dr. Victor Chepkin trying to say? Did he have a hand in the development of the WS-10? Did he have access to the WS-10? Did he provide consultation? Otherwise how does he know AL-31 maintenance/technical documentation were ever used? Or did he say that by the external appearance of the WS-10?

 

[MiG-29]

Of course I can't stop the Russian media from saying anything, but we've seen how one Russian media mixed things up when it claimed that the JF-17 was a clone of the Mig-29. Likewise, it's quite possible the Russian official was commenting on the rebuilt variant of the AL-31 but the media got confused with it with the WS-10A.

And you can't simply accused something as a myth/folklore without knowing anything about it yourself or at least do some research. Some of the information on the WS-10A came from this Jane's article (the introductory part only) which itself based its write-up on Chinese official sources.

What's there to argue anymore?

The WS-10, when compared to the AL-31, has a different engine core (in relation to its number of fans, compressors, turbines blades), a different diameter as indicated by its noticeably wider nozzles and even an AB with different colour when compared to the flanker engine.

Look, i am not trying to convince you, Victor Chepkin is basicly Saturn`s opinion, it is basicly an official Russian opinion.
You won`t change them, they have their sources and reasons.

You might like them, or not, Russia Today, interfax, have their sources.

So in few words, the Russians do not believe at least Saturn and Victor Chepkin that story, they sent Alexander Miheev to China to talk with the Chinese to discuss property right material issues where they think China is violating the licenses.

J-11B was one, and probably Al-31 was too another.

When the Russian defence Minister was approached by the Chinese about the desire of China to buy 117S, Russia rejected the offer and said buy us the Su-35 and you can buy the 117S.

But also they asked China to sign and agreement where the chinese were asked to refrain of copying 117S technologies claiming China copied Al-31 technologies

 

[MiG-29]

What is Dr. Victor Chepkin trying to say? Did he have a hand in the development of the WS-10? Did he have access to the WS-10? Did he provide consultation? Otherwise how does he know AL-31 maintenance/technical documentation were ever used? Or did he say that by the external appearance of the WS-10?

They have their sources you can ask Saturn or Russia today, Chepkin more or less represents Saturn`s opinion, and China and Russia discussed IP material issues in 2010 where Russia think China is making illegal copies of russian technology.

Russia wanted guarantees 117S was not going to be copied like Al-31 was that was part of the deal for selling 117S and the Su-35 and some sources claim that is why the talks stalled.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Well well we haven't heard a while from our friend Pinkov Here is the latest from his Kanwa
first posted by SGW06 from keypub. I quote his post

Russian arms saleman claimed China dont think very high about Su-35
In his August/2012 issue of Kanwa defence, he basically claimed two things:

1) According to his Chinese sources, the Chinese side is not impressed about the performance of Su-35, and there is no Chinese sources he could find to support the idea the Chinese show any interests or confidences in Su-35.

2)According to his Chinese source, the Chinese side now want to sell T/R module for the Airborne AESA radars to Russia, the Chinese side claimed their T/R modules performed better, being more capable, consume less power, generating less heat and been cheaper to built comparing its russian counterparts.

3)According to the boss of Inistute of Radar and Electronic device of AVIC (雷电院), Chinese believe now their radars technologies are clearly superior to their Europe counterpart, and only USA has a slight lead there, in his article, he has not wasted any of his time on discussing Russian radars technoglies, suggesting Russian radars are not on his horizon.


Source:

The August Issue of Kanwa defence can be downloaded here:

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This piece of news is on Page 28.
His quote

Considering the fact the joker called Pinkov is so biased towards russian arms to the degree he get a nickname as Russian arms salesman in China, when even he admitted there is nothing but pure wanking from the russian side about how Chinese want their SU-35, it is a really closed case about the whole Su-35 mess.

Now everyone and his dogs can figure the obvious out:

Chinese has ZERO interests in Su-35 and the russians keep opening their patented loud mouth to bring the crap out intentionally to try to promote their Su-35 who, at the moment, has FAILED to sell a BLOODY single unit despite of the fact they desperatly try to sell them to the outside world.

 

[drunkmunky]

^^ kind of reminds me of someone.

 

[Engineer]

Look, i am not trying to convince you, Victor Chepkin is basicly Saturn`s opinion, it is basicly an official Russian opinion.
You won`t change them, they have their sources and reasons.

You might like them, or not, Russia Today, interfax, have their sources.

So in few words, the Russians do not believe at least Saturn and Victor Chepkin that story, they sent Alexander Miheev to China to talk with the Chinese to discuss property right material issues where they think China is violating the licenses.

J-11B was one, and probably Al-31 was too another.

Official Russian opinion also claims China is buying 48 Su-35, how did that turn out? Nothing more than a lie. Official Russian opinion is meaningless given the lack of credibility. As for Victor Chepkin's statement, it is just his opinion and one that is contradicted by known development history of WS-10A. Whether you accept it or not, WS-10A has little heritage from AL-31F and that's a fact.

When the Russian defence Minister was approached by the Chinese about the desire of China to buy 117S, Russia rejected the offer and said buy us the Su-35 and you can buy the 117S.

But also they asked China to sign and agreement where the chinese were asked to refrain of copying 117S technologies claiming China copied Al-31 technologies

If China is determined to copy something, it makes little difference whether China only got one or a hundred of that item. So, claiming Russia is wary of copying by China then claiming Russia wants to sell 100 117S to China are actually contradiction. The truth is China isn't going to buy the Su-35 or 117S engines. If Russia wants to sell a couple, that's fine. Otherwise, Russia isn't going to get a cent. Licensing issue is a poor excuse for justifying the lack of export for Su-35.

 

[Engineer]

They have their sources you can ask Saturn or Russia today, Chepkin more or less represents Saturn`s opinion, and China and Russia discussed IP material issues in 2010 where Russia think China is making illegal copies of russian technology.

Russia wanted guarantees 117S was not going to be copied like Al-31 was that was part of the deal for selling 117S and the Su-35 and some sources claim that is why the talks stalled.

The talks stalled because China isn't interested in the Su-35, and Russia cannot sell when China does not want to buy.

There is no needs for China to copy the 117S since China is already using WS-10A on new built fighters. As for AL-31F,

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but come short of creating a manufacturing line. Decisions were also made to reject licensing a manufacturing line from Saturn, because there is simply no need due to the switch over to WS-10A.

No matter how you spin facts and quote fairy tales, China isn't going to waste money on the Su-35 when domestic product is superior.

 

[Engineer]

The August Issue of Kanwa defence can be downloaded here:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This piece of news is on Page 28.
His quote

I can't access the attachment because I am not a member. Please put up a screen shot of the relevant page on imgur.