China Flanker Thread II
- Thread starter sumdud
- Start date
- Status
Quickie
Colonel
We've seen how some Russian media twist and turn the facts of the case.
In this case, it looks to me the Russian media have mistakenly assumed the flanker engine maintenance issues has something to do with the WS-10A engine.
It seems to me some Russian officials were having issues with the way China carried out the maintenance of the AL-31 engines bypassing the Russian all together and rebuilding some major parts of the engines in the process. No matter how some Russian sources tried to spin it out to be something illegal, this is all part of a maintenance and upgrading process of some equipment which China has bought from Russia and there's no such thing as the buyer cannot do the maintenance themselves and upgrading and improving it in the process.
Kurt
Junior Member
That's not necessarily correct. It can be part of a contract that the buyer is forbidden from doing so and will lose supply with other spare parts if enacting this route.
A major problem with this discussion is the lack of hard sources on contractual agreements and technical data, especially from direct competition between Chinese and Russian aircrafts. I don't doubt that China does have the potential of the future and will likely close the gap and overtake in the fastest developing fields such as software and avionics, but airframe designs are not yet visible breakthroughs. Whether PESA or AESA is better depends on a lot of factors. PESA is tried and tested and a well-honed PESA can outperform the recent AESA, but has little development potential left. That's why a switch is required and the earlier you start the switch, the more expensive it is, but this experience will give a slight head start incorporating a new technology.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
It is obvious you do not know about Russia`s upgrade programs
first Su-35 can supercruise but J-11B can not
The Su-35 flies with two next generation AL-41F1C engines that enable it to achieve hypersonic speed without afterburner, a feature attributed to 5G jets. And AL-41F1C actually is a de-rated version of the AL-41F1 (117C) engine used on the undergoing tests T-50 PAK-FA, Russian 5G fighter
So has a more impressive flight envelope
add its radar can detect a target of 3 square meters at 400km, so J-11B or J-16 are really very detectable at long range
[video=youtube;wmNkm45gTco]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=wmNkm45gTco&NR=1[/video]
let us start with Su-27SM
December 22, Moscow. The Sukhoi Company has completed delivery of 12 new multi-purpose Su-27SM(3) fighters to the Russian Air Force. The last batch of aircraft was sent to the place of deployment. They were released under a state contract, signed between the Sukhoi Company and the Ministry of Defence at the MAKS-2009 air show. The production was organized at the Sukhoi’s KnAAPO aircraft plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
The Su-27SM(3) fighter aircraft has a strengthened airframe to enable takeoff weight increased by more than 3 tons and additional suspension points to accommodate weapons. The fighters are equipped with new equipment and weapons complexes as well as with the new AL-31F-M1 turbofan engines produced by the MMPP “Salut”, which are characterized by high thrust and extended time between overhauls.
Currently, the aircraft developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau, make up more than 40% of the Russian air force fighters’ park. These are the Su-27s, including 12 Su-27SM3 of the new production and Su-27SM, which underwent avionics’ upgrade and now are able to engage ground targets and have the so-called “glass” cockpit. In addition, the air force also received in recent years two-seated Su-30M2 fighters and a few advanced multifunctional Su-35 fighters
So the closest jets to J-11B is Su-27SM3 but Al-31M1 is more powerful than WS-10 and Su-35 has even the more powerful 117S
Last edited:
Honest and well stated Kurt, and I would add that the J-20 shows initiative and great potential, and as Dr. Song stated in his honest and well written paper, the real klinker remains the powerplant. The Sino Flanker is a beautifull and well thought out aircraft, it should perform very well, and there is little doubt that lots of progress has been made in the propulsion dept, but it would be nice if credit was given where due, cash is appreciated also. LOL
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Lets talk fact here How many version of AWAC that Russia produced so far.None as far as I know they have experimental AWAC that is plagued with shortcoming that even China refuse to buy. Last count I can tell that China have mass produced 3 or 4 different AWAC even export it to Pakistan
Now lets have a look at the Navy. China have mass produced at least 2 different type of AESA for the destroyer
China have produced all sort of Surveillance Aircraft . Seem like every month they come up with new type of surveillance aircraft. Too bad that Huitong site is down otherwise I can provide the link.
Even in the realm of Jet engine I am not sure that Russia is that much advance . Russian engine is notorious for poor maintenance record The mean time before repair is something like 900 hr compare to 2000 or 3000 hr for western engine.
China did make modification on the AL 31 engine to extend the MTBR from 900 hr to 1500 hr. Here is the article by Reuben Johnson and Photo of the facility from pakistan defense forum
ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010
Jane's Defence Weekly
China makes modifications to Russian Salyut AL-31F jet engine
Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Kiev
Key Points
The PLAAF has developed its own upgrade for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F jet engine
The development demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in supporting their fighters' Russian-made engines
The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has developed its own service life extension modifications for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F engine, a Moscow-based defence and foreign policy think-tank has reported.
The modifications to the AL-31F/FN P.2 series engine increase its operational limits by more than 65 per cent - from 900 to 1,500 flight hours, according to the privately owned Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST).
The AL-31F engine is the powerplant for several types of aircraft in the PLAAF inventory: the Sukhoi Su-27 (which is also licence-produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Works as the J-11), the Su-30MKK and the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation J-10. The AL-31FN is a special derivative of the original AL-31F design that was developed by the Salyut plant in Moscow for a single-engine application to be fitted to the J-10.
The service life modifications were reportedly developed at the PLAAF Overhaul Plant Number 5719. The key to the service life extension is a specific set of improved, Chinese-made components that are part of what is described as a "re-manufacturing kit" that is introduced during the process of a full-scale remanufacturing and overhaul process.
The plant is located near the city of Chengdu in Sichuan province, employs 2,000 personnel and is reported to be a model of innovation within the PLAAF's network of repair plants. During the past several years the facility has initiated 63 different research and development programmes and has been awarded more than 20 state prizes for achievements in technological innovation. In the same time period, the plant's assets have more than doubled from CNY1.1 billion (USD147.2 million) in 2004 to CNY2.9 billion today.
The plant's officials credit the success of their overhaul process to a decision taken in 2004, when some of the first AL-31F engines were presented to the plant by the PLAAF for overhaul. A decision was taken, according to the Chinese news sources originally cited, to completely reorganise the overhaul process. This streamlining of the overhaul disassembly and servicing line resulted in a 27.3 per cent decrease in the time required to complete an overhaul and increased the plant's production capacity by 60 per cent.
This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russian-made engines. Russian specialists who spoke to Jane's state that this is "another example of how the technology sold to the Chinese during the 1990s has now been fully assimilated by them. It is only a matter of time before the engines that China produces will be as good as or better than anything designed here in Russia".
Last edited:
Quickie
Colonel
The Russian will not agree to setting up any jet engine maintenance facility in China in any probable maintenance contract. In any case, the client always has a recourse of actions which they can legally take if the maintenance services are unsatisfactory. We don't even know if there was any maintenance contract signed. From the look of things, it's likely there was none.
Last edited:
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
[video=youtube;9Jut-HXwOhM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jut-HXwOhM&feature=related[/video]
Pure, mythlore of yours, Russia has AESA radars
By the way Irbis has a 400km of range which basicly makes it an AWACS
[video=youtube;p8C06dHhlXc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8C06dHhlXc&feature=relmfu[/video]
Активная фазированная антенная решетка для бортовых РЛС Х - диапазона =aesa
Last edited:
Speaking of powerplants what is the problem with China producing state-of-the-art powerplants for aircraft?
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Designing and producing prototype is one thing. But mass producing it is another thing. The question is have IRBIS or any other AESA been mass produced so far?
Russian electronic industry have so far unsuccessful in producing cheap T/R module for the radar because of weak electronic industrial base
- Status