China Flanker Thread II

[MiG-29]

Designing and producing prototype is one thing. But mass producing it is another thing. The question is have IRBIS or any other AESA been mass produced so far?

Russian electronic industry have so far unsuccessful in producing cheap T/R module for the radar because of weak electronic industrial base

117S is in production, Al-31M1 is in production engines with more power than WS-10
Type 30 already flew in T-50 and 117 flies on PAKFA now

Irbis can detect at 400km what makes it an AWACS with data link 4 Su-35s can sweep 2500km-3000km and detect 120 targets, 30 per aircraft and IRBIS is in production.

It has electronic scaning. which basicly is phased array, it is by no means primitive.

PAKFA will start deliveries from 2013-2014, so you can say early preproduction.

Russian AWACS with AESA will be on 2016.

In fact what stopped Russia is not lack of technology but money in the first decade of 2000s now is different, Russia is upgrading its air force with 100 aircraft a year.
[video=youtube;-664Okc6dQQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-664Okc6dQQ&feature=related[/video]

Before claiming J-11B has surpassed Russia read Russia has moved ahead from 1990

 

[Engineer]

First like you said, in this forum, most people do not agree with me, what about others?
Of course more people agrees with me.

But that is senseless the truth is not a democracy but a dictatorship, truth is truth.

Second i am not going to convince you, i know that, and i know why.

Third my point is not to convince you but inform you.


Inform you is give you the freedom of chosing and respect your opinion, my opinion is Russia has a point, the rest time will tell.

But Chepkin is not a guy in a forum, but a jet engine designer and a head engineer from Saturn plus he designed a very advanced engine and he praised the Chinese engineering skills, he is one of the head designers of 117S and 117 so fro my point of view his opinion is much more worthed than any forum myth

It doesn't matter whether you accept it or not, as we know Chepkin's statement has little factual basis because WS-10A is derived from the core of CFM-56. In academia, when a person takes credit for something that he didn't do, that is known as plagiarism. Chepkin's claim regarding WS-10A is no better. Your point of view isn't going to magically make Chepkin more credible on the WS-10A than he really is.

Fellow forum members should not feel intimidated just because someone threw out a big name. After all, lies are still lies no matter how prominent the figure telling the lie is.

 

[Engineer]

According to Victor Mihailovich Chepkin J-20 can not be called a fifth generation fighter yet because the best Chinese engine is like Al-31 and based on it and says we have (we russians) a true fifth generation engine
he says

Их лучший двигатель скопирован с нашего "АЛ-31Ф". У нас же действительно двигатель 5-го поколения,

— Не потеряем, потому что такого самолета как у нас, у китайцев нет и в ближайшее время не будет! Они говорят, что сделали самолет 5-го поколения, но говорить можно что угодно… Их лучший двигатель скопирован с нашего "АЛ-31Ф". У нас же действительно двигатель 5-го поколения, и он по всем своим параметрам, по тяге, по удельному расходу топлива соответствует 5-му поколению. Я приоткрою тайну и скажу, что у нас фактически уже есть два двигателя 5-го поколения. Второй, который сейчас условно называется "тип 30", уже испытывался в полете на истребителе "Т-50". В дальнейшем ему, наверное, дадут имя "АЛ-…". По своим параметрам он на 15-25 процентов превосходит "117-й".

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Everyone thinks we have better technology, but your source has no names, a unknown Russian source, my has a true jet designer boasting about its engine publicly, i can name the source, in fact i can tell you Russia has type 30 engine which already flew on T-50 and is 15-25 % more powerful than 117

Just because a bunch of statements are written in Russian, that doesn't make them the truth. Chinese engineers will just laugh at them. However, I will provide one sentence from Chepkin himself which retorts his very own claims:

Они говорят, что сделали самолет 5-го поколения, но говорить можно что угодно…

It translates to "they claimed they made a 5-th generation, but you can say anything." Indeed, there has never been a third party source verifying any of the Russian claims. PAKFA being a 5-th generation fighter is only a Russian claim. Su-35 being a super fighter is only a Russian claim. Russia fighters capable of achieving super cruise ability is only a Russian claim. China wanting the 117S engine is a Russian claim. China wanting to buy the Su-35 is also a Russian claim.

Chepkin's statements are smack of hypocrisies.

plus RT news claims


In 2010, when Russia’s Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov was on visit to China, Beijing proposed to buy 117C engines, but the offer was turned down

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Words are empty. What matters is the result. Russian sources can claim all they want, but they have no proof for their own statements when they cannot get a single order from China. Indeed, China has not brought a single Su-35 for the 117C engine. That's the amount of interest China has on Russia engines -- little to none.

that is common, howevers the Europeans will laugh at such statements and the Russians will say we have really good electronics.

the truth of machines of war is they are tested in war or in the ability to deterr.

Considering the author of that article is a pro-Russia fanboy just like yourself, his statements really show how remote the entire China-is-buying-Su-35 fantasy is away from reality. I will inform you with a little fact, you can disagree with it all you want but it is still the truth; China has superior domestic alternatives, thus has no need to buy the Su-35 and related subsystems.

 

[Engineer]

It is obvious you do not know about Russia`s upgrade programs


first Su-35 can supercruise but J-11B can not

The Su-35 flies with two next generation AL-41F1C engines that enable it to achieve hypersonic speed without afterburner, a feature attributed to 5G jets. And AL-41F1C actually is a de-rated version of the AL-41F1 (117C) engine used on the undergoing tests T-50 PAK-FA, Russian 5G fighter



So has a more impressive flight envelope

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но говорить можно что угодно… You can claim anything. Russian claims have never been verified by independent sources.

add its radar can detect a target of 3 square meters at 400km, so J-11B or J-16 are really very detectable at long range

[video=youtube;wmNkm45gTco]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=wmNkm45gTco&NR=1[/video]

LMAO! The detection range at 400km is for a 50,000m[sup]2[/sup] target. For non-stealthy aerial vehicles, the promotion video says their detection range is between 100km and 150km. Su-35 is not a stealth fighter, thus its RCS is going to be as Chinese Flankers, which makes Su-35 very detectable at long range.

 

[Kurt]

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is a very informative page. They have an inherent bias overrating the Flanker against current US legacy designs and push for more F-22, but still, it reasonably explains the whole radar issue of Flankers with their development stages and massive differences. Unfortunately, this only concerns Russian and not Chinese Flankers. Still, we might achieve a lot more if we collect information and post it here before we have unsubstantiated discussions about the effectiveness of sytems none of us touched or understands.

This news has been around earlier, the Russians push for AWACS killers, the ability of fighters to long range detect and use very long range bvr combat. It's a continuation of the Soviet assassin's mace that searched for options to counter the superior information network of their enemies. The Beriev A-50 is the symmetric approach of a Soviet AWACS, with Indian and Chinese derivates, to not only counter, but create something similar for themselves. This will always be a very complicated task and at the heart of modern warfare that has less to do with outstanding hardware, but obtaing information to use the available means under optimum conditions and avoid suboptimal circumstances. Getting the AWACS component on more surviveable fighters that are themselves networked is a solution less capable at information processing, but more capable to survive against an enemy with attributed AWACS killer capacity. The F-22 similarly tries to cover a large surrounding area. It seems there is diminished confidence into the undisputed information rule by modified civilian transports with large antennas.

 

[MiG-29]

но говорить можно что угодно… You can claim anything. Russian claims have never been verified by independent sources.



LMAO! The detection range at 400km is for a 50,000m[sup]2[/sup] target. For non-stealthy aerial vehicles, the promotion video says their detection range is between 100km and 150km. Su-35 is not a stealth fighter, thus its RCS is going to be as Chinese Flankers, which makes Su-35 very detectable at long range.

Radar Irbis for Su-35
Радиолокационная система управления «ИРБИС-Э» для истребителя Су-35
tecnical characteristics
Тактико-технические характеристики

air to air mode range of detection for a 3 square meters target 350 -400km
Режим «Воздух-Воздух»:
- дальность обнаружения целей с ЭПР = 3м2 – 350-400 км


Source Russian manufacturer NIIP of IRBIS official page

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Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.



Source Sukhoi official webpage

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See you i hope you learn not to lie otherwise people see your desesperation


The engine is intended to power SU-27 aircraft and its modifi¬cation (SU-27SM, SU-33, SU-34 and others). The engine is fully interchangeable with serial AL-31F engine.

AL-31F (42 series) M1

Design modular
Maximum thrust, kgf 13500

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obviously official webpages are not your speciality, your mythlore is based on lies

 

[Engineer]

Radar Irbis for Su-35
Радиолокационная система управления «ИРБИС-Э» для истребителя Су-35
tecnical characteristics
Тактико-технические характеристики

air to air mode range of detection for a 3 square meters target 350 -400km
Режим «Воздух-Воздух»:
- дальность обнаружения целей с ЭПР = 3м2 – 350-400 км


Source Russian manufacturer NIIP of IRBIS official page

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Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.



Source Sukhoi official webpage

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See you i hope you learn not to lie otherwise people see your desesperation

The engine is intended to power SU-27 aircraft and its modifi¬cation (SU-27SM, SU-33, SU-34 and others). The engine is fully interchangeable with serial AL-31F engine.

AL-31F (42 series) M1

Design modular
Maximum thrust, kgf 13500

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China has already switched to WS-10A for newly built fighters. Even 117S failed to get any order because China has not ordered any Su-35.

obviously official webpages are not your speciality, your mythlore is based on lies

Your official source said China is buying 48 Su-35, that is a lie for you because the Chinese Department of Defense explicitly denied it. Another one of your official source also claimed how WS-10A is copied from AL-31F, which is another lie because WS-10A is derived from core of the CFM-56. You can deny it all you want, but Russian aerospace industry is largely based on lies and deceits, like those substandard Mig-29 sold to Algeria.

 

[escobar]

This endless discussion about Is-WS10-based-on-AL31F and whether or not PLAAF-will-buy-Su35 is becoming absurd.

 

[Lion]

This endless discussion about Is-WS10-based-on-AL31F and whether or not PLAAF-will-buy-Su35 is becoming absurd.

Once WS-15 comes out, it will end all agruement. And its not too distant.

 

[Engineer]

Once WS-15 comes out, it will end all agruement. And its not too distant.

Will it? I foresee Russian engineers will shamelessly claim how the engine is a copy of so-and-so Russian product, if not claiming it is a Russian product directly.