China Flanker Thread II

[Quickie]

[video=youtube;8Q1z8RHqsjg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q1z8RHqsjg[/video]

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Huh? The JF-17 is a clone / cheaper imitation of Mig-29? How so? The commentator is also dead wrong to say that China development of fighter jets jumped from Gen 2 to Gen 4. Obviously he didn't know anything about the J-8s , JH-7/A , J-10A.

 

[Engineer]

I differ, the Su-35 has a decade window for exports, first, the first J-20 and T-50s will not be ready for export probably until 2020-2025.

The Russians do not expect to export T-50 beyond India until probably 2018.


Most air forces in the world, in example africa, latin america, won`t buy stealth fighters in at least 15-20 years from now.
Most arab airforces can not afford to buy Eurofighters, so fighter like Su-35s or Gripen will be in demand.

Sukhoi and Russia military fanboys think Su-35 is competitive and has a decade of window for exports, but such thinking is contradict by the fact that no country is buy the aircraft.

The J-11B does not represent the latest advances in technology, however their prize, most be very competitive.

The Su-35 does not represent the latest advances in technology either. Whether J-11B is competitive is irrelevant, as it isn't being offered for sale anyway. What is important is that J-11B has already switched to WS-10A engines, and this shows China has no need for the 117S engine.

Engine technology also is not only a matter of technology but of reliability.

The fact that China is equipping its new built fighters with WS-10A shows the engine has enough reliability.

To gauge the real state of engine technology in china is hard to know, but i can assure that 3S (Supermaneouvrability, STOL, supercruise) of a fifth generation fighter rest on the engine and the last S Stealth can be defeated by radar and avionics, in fact a 400km 3 square meters target detectability, means a F-35 might be detected at around 100km of distance and both Rafale and Su-35 have IRST of 90-110 km of range.

This means if Su-35 has a 3m[sup]2[/sup], it would be detected 400km away and wouldn't be able to exercise the IRST, super maneuverability or super cruise capability.

So why China wants to buy a Su-35? answer the 117, however this is dependant upon what engines they have now and what they will have in 2020.

But the Russians expect to have the T-30 engine by 2018 on T-50s, so selling the Su-35 is not to much risk now.

The Su-35 flies with two next generation AL-41F1C engines that enable it to achieve hypersonic speed without afterburner, a feature attributed to 5G jets. And AL-41F1C actually is a de-rated version of the AL-41F1 (117C) engine used on the undergoing tests T-50 PAK-FA, Russian 5G fighter

China doesn't want to buy the Su-35, only Russia military fanboys drown in fantasy think China wants to do so. The reason why China isn't buying the Su-35 is simple: China does not need the aircraft or any of its subsystem, and that includes the engines.

China has already made a switch to WS-10A for domestic fighters, and will no longer use Russian engines for new aircraft. The WS-15, a true F119 class engine unlike the 117, will come online along with J-20 around 2018. There is little reasons for China to have 117C engines when the country is capable of producing F119 equivalent.

In 2010, when Russia’s Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov was on visit to China, Beijing proposed to buy 117C engines, but the offer was turned down.
Russians agreed to sell only assembled planes and in addition insist on signing a special anti-copycat agreement, designed to prevent the Chinese from copying the vehicle and its parts, as has happened before

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Copying means making something that is identical to the original product. Copying is only possible because the country doing the copying is as technological advanced as the country being copied. The fact that Russia is afraid of China's copying capability shows China already has all the technologies found on the Su-35. China does not need the 117C as your fairy tale claimed, and this is reflected by the reality is that China has not brought a single Su-35.

 

[Engineer]

For military aircraft, we have created two engines - one for the aircraft, like Su-35 ", the second - for the Russian aircraft 5 th generation of T-50". The first - is "117C" - is mainly intended for export. He is more simple in terms of aerodynamics, and most importantly - targeted for aircraft with conventional arms, suspended on pylons outside the fuselage, with no strong constraints on dimensions. Such schemes fro example are used on 4-th generation aircrafts , exported to India and Malaysia.

The second engine - is "117" - though only differ by one letter in the title, much more advanced engine - this is a real engine of the 5-th generation. From the rivals can sometimes be heard the 5-th generation engine should be with such a blade, such and such materials, high-speed rotors, and you do not have this ... None of this is all just ways of achieving the goal. A single goal - increasing specific thrust, ie the ratio of thrust to its weight.

Wrong. The 117 is only an engine powering a fifth generation fighter, it is a stretch to call it a fifth generation engine. The F-119 is a true fifth-generation engine having a thrust of 156kN, while 117 only produces 147kN. China already have all the technologies required to build a true fifth generation engine -- the WS-15. More importantly is that WS-15 is designed from scratch just like the F-119, while Russia lacks the ability to design a truly new generation of engine.

Q - In the difficult years for the Russian aircraft industry, aircraft building companies that produced military aircraft survived by exports, especially in China and India. Today, the Chinese have copied our Su-27 "and are ready to sell it on world markets at dumping prices. Not whether as a result we lose our traditional markets of combat aircraft?

A - We dont, because such an aircraft as we have, the Chinese have no and will have no in visible prospective. They say that they have made a 5-th generation plane, but one can say anything ...

Russia claims they made a 5th generation plane, but one can say anything. Russia claims the Su-35 can supercruise, but one can say anything. Normally, one would just take the words of the manufacturer as the truth, but when it comes to Russia there is zero credibility. After all, if Russia can lie about country such as China being interested in Su-35, then it would be equally as easy to lie about the capabilities of Su-35 or T-50.

Their best engine was copied from our "AL-31F.

This, coming off from the AL-41 chief engineer, is remarkable in the level of ignorance. Either that or it shows Russia's military industry having lied so much is now believing in its own lies. The most advanced engine currently in use in China is WS-10A (Taihang), which is based off of CFM-56 and have no heritage with the AL-31F.

The core of the CFM-56 turbofan that powered early Boeing-737 transports sold to China in the 1980s influenced early engine core designs for the Taihang.

The link for the above statement can be found

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.

And we produce 5-th generation engines , and they are in all of their parameters of thrust, specific fuel consumption correspond to the 5-th generation. I opened the secret and say that we actually already have two 5-th generation engines. The second, which is now conventionally called the "Type 30", has already been tested in flight on the fighter T-50 ". In the future it probably will give the name of "AL-...." According to its parameters it a 15-25 percent better than "117 th".

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this is why russia can now sell Su-35s to China, they have a very advanced engine for T-50

Russia offered China an opportunity for joint development in the T-50, but China declined because T-50 is already inferior to what China could have designed at that time. When T-50 is deemed as inferior and rejected, there is even less reason to go for Su-35 that is even more inferior. This

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has the following to say:

In June 2001, India was offered 'joint development and production' of this new 5th generation fighter by Russia. Russia had been trying to sell this concept both to China and India for some time. It seems probable that China declined to participate in this project given a belief that Russia stood to gain more from Chinese participation than did China. That is, it would seem that China had determined that it could produce a superior product without Russian help. With the first flight of the Russian stealth fighter in 2010, an arguably superior Chinese steath fighter might be expected to take to the skies not too long thereafter.

 

[Vini_Vidi_Vici]

I'm definitely not pro-Russia or a Russian fanboy. But I can't resist but ask "Engineer", you claim the J-20 and its peripherals to be so amazing, where are the proofs?

God knows what stage WS15 is at. The only physical piece of evidence is the picture of engineers standing underneath a banner saying "WS15". But other than that, it could be still be on drawing table as of this day. None of us are insiders, we can only speculate. But you're using those claims as hard evidences and proofs. 117s and al-41f1 might be slightly inferior to the F-119, but they're within the same class, slight inferiority don't make a class difference. But the bottomline is, 117s and Al-41f1 already flew on the T50, J20 is still probably powered by an Al31 or its chinese copy, the WS10.

You're claiming the Russians to be fakes and impetents, but they have sold billions of dollars worth of state-of-the-art 3rd generation fighters to countless countries, including China. But as of now, China had only sold cheap knockoffs of Russian designs to African countries. So far, China hasn't sold the upgraded J-7 (aka FC-1/JF-17) to any country but Pakistan.

China is definitely catching up fast. A lot of pro-China fanboys began to believe that China surpassed Russia in everything. But the fundamental problem is that, the Russians can show everything they have accomplished and sell it to foreign clients. The Chinese accomplishments are mostly based on claims of fanboys. They might be true and might not be true, usually they weren't true.

One side is actual engineers of the weapon coming out to tell you the specs and trying sell it to you, the other is a bunch of fanboys making claims the PLA can do this and that. For an outsider that knows nothing about military, which one do you guys think he's going to believe.

 

[solarz]

One side is actual engineers of the weapon coming out to tell you the specs and trying sell it to you, the other is a bunch of fanboys making claims the PLA can do this and that. For an outsider that knows nothing about military, which one do you guys think he's going to believe.

If I had to choose between someone who wanted to sell me something, and someone who was just an enthusiast?

I know nothing about jets, but if this was a car, I'd choose to listen to the enthusiast.

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Russia will sell Su-35 because they are fairly confident that T-50 will reach operational status on schedule, China will not buy because they are fairly confident J-20 will become operational soon enough. Thus it doesn't need the Su-35 to fill the top dog spot, and its current fleet of Flankers are more than sufficient to fill the back up roles.

 

[Engineer]

I'm definitely not pro-Russia or a Russian fanboy. But I can't resist but ask "Engineer", you claim the J-20 and its peripherals to be so amazing, where are the proofs?

God knows what stage WS15 is at. The only physical piece of evidence is the picture of engineers standing underneath a banner saying "WS15". But other than that, it could be still be on drawing table as of this day. None of us are insiders, we can only speculate. But you're using those claims as hard evidences and proofs.

When have I used a banner as proof? I believe you will not be able to quote me on using the banner as evidence. Furthermore, what I am advocating is not J-20 being so amazing, but rather claiming Russian equipments are not as superior as some have claimed. What better proof is there than China rejection of T-50 offer? What other proof do you need when China already explicitly stated that it is not buying the Su-35?

117s and al-41f1 might be slightly inferior to the F-119, but they're within the same class, slight inferiority don't make a class difference. But the bottomline is, 117s and Al-41f1 already flew on the T50, J20 is still probably powered by an Al31 or its chinese copy, the WS10.

First, a difference in nearly 10kN is not slightly inferior, it is inferior and indicates a generation gap. Secondly, WS-10A is not a copy of AL-31F and your claim otherwise makes me doubt you are not Russia military fanboy

You're claiming the Russians to be fakes and impetents, but they have sold billions of dollars worth of state-of-the-art 3rd generation fighters to countless countries, including China. But as of now, China had only sold cheap knockoffs of Russian designs to African countries. So far, China hasn't sold the upgraded J-7 (aka FC-1/JF-17) to any country but Pakistan.

We already know Russia's claims about China buying the Su-35 as nothing more than lies. Thus, I am not claiming Russians to be fake but pointing out their record of lies. Whether Russia have had sold billions dollars worth of equipments before does not turn lies into truths.

Furthermore, China hasn't have much of a market to begin with, but at least China has orders for JF-17 while Su-35 has no export so far. This shows you that despite Russia claiming Su-35 being superior, countries are not believing in such claims. Russia now needs to lie about China buying the aircraft ever so often just to generate some discussion for the plane, and such lie only serves to hurt Russia's credibility.

China is definitely catching up fast. A lot of pro-China fanboys began to believe that China surpassed Russia in everything. But the fundamental problem is that, the Russians can show everything they have accomplished and sell it to foreign clients. The Chinese accomplishments are mostly based on claims of fanboys. They might be true and might not be true, usually they weren't true.

What has Russia accomplished? Nothing that China isn't accomplishing already. What has Russia sold so far to foreign clients? Certainly none of the so claimed superior Su-35. The core of the matter isn't pro-China fanboys believing China has surpassed Russia in everything, but rather pro-Russia fanboys still cling to the fantasy China is behind on Russia in all aspects. This is why pro-Russia fanboys would actually believe selling China 50 pieces of garbage is a viable marketing strategy.

One side is actual engineers of the weapon coming out to tell you the specs and trying sell it to you, the other is a bunch of fanboys making claims the PLA can do this and that. For an outsider that knows nothing about military, which one do you guys think he's going to believe.

You are making a fallacy called

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, where you assume Russian engineers say the absolute truth when they are known to be lying in various instances. You also assumed an ignorant person is capable of making an informed and valid decision. The core issue is credibility, and so far Chinese military fanboys have made more accurate predictions than Russian salesmen.

 

[AssassinsMace]

The fact is the people who believe the Su-35 deal is real are just throwing crap on the wall waiting for one to stick.

These are the past claims in chronological order on the Russian side:

1) The Russians stopped selling to China over IP theft.

2) The Russians won't sell Su-33 because China won't order enough to bother.

3) The Russians sold the same engine on the T-50 that's on the J-20.

4) The Russians are trying to sell Su-35s but IP theft is the hanging issue.

5) The Chinese just want to buy the Su-35 so they can learn to copy the engine. (The same engine they claim to sold to China that's on the J-20) Too few for the Russians to bother.

All new excuses contradict a previous one. It seems the overhanging issue is IP theft so why do the Russians keep trying to sell the Su-35 to China when this is still a problem. If the Russians think China cheats with agreements, why would they bother to keep trying to sell it to China?

Notice who believes this deal is real? Pro-West and and pro-Russian. Why? Because they both don't want to believe that no one can go it alone without either one of them. That sums up China's impact on their stranglehold overall in everything. The West predicts China's economy will collapse simply because they're not doing so well. Ergo, China will fall soon. This story is just their attempt to bring the same theme to every level. It doesn't matter if China doesn't have an engine at the same level as theirs. It works at an acceptable level that they trust them on new fighters now and just as long as it lasts longer than one sortie, who cares because China has a working one and that's all that matters. It can only improve from now onward. It's sort of like the logic that China shouldn't build and operate carriers because it takes decades to master. Well it has to start somewhere. Maybe because they also think the Chinese instinct to go to war and can't wait to conquer the world will happen before they're even ready. Yeah they're all concerned about how much money the Chinese will waste. Now they want to make everyone believe Chinese engines won't last more than one mission to which why they need to obtain one the Russians already said was sold to China and on the J-20. That's called a contradiction and a history of lying. Yet look who still believes all that bull. When people makes so many excuses that they start contradicting, at the heart of it is simple denial and wishful thinking.

Let's also not forget the real reason why this deal keeps coming up is because some have personal issues with Chinese in general and they just want to act as spoiler even though they know they'll end-up being wrong because that's all they have to salvage from the rise of a China none of them ever imagined was possible. Before the emergence of the J-20, how many beyond the average China watching enthusiast were there that believed it was impossible and was nothing but a Chinese fanboy fantasy? How about all of them? Now they act as if they never believed that simply because they don't want to admit they were wrong. And that's the simple motivation behind it here and why they keep bringing it up.

The Russians can be trusted from their end? Look at how many deals signed get hung up in the process to cheat the buyer out for more money. Yeah the Indians are trustworthy to the Russians. Too bad India now experiences the same delays and for the same reasons the Chinese faced with deals. Yeah and China is begging for more of that despite experience.

Because China has the J-20, lol?

Yeah hence why would China want the Su-35? Is the T-50 superior or inferior to the J-20 to tis why China isn't wanting nor the Russians offering the T-50 to China? And the excuses can be applied to the same with the Su-35 non-deal.

 

[no_name]

This loooooooong discussion about Su-35 exports to China is getting veeeerrrrryyyyy...boring.

Should we just discuss the flankers currently in Chinese air force?

 

[MiG-29]

T50 only has 'very advanced engine' only on paper. In reality, T50 engines blew up spectacularly and publicly during an airshow. I bet many more times in private.
It's not so different with Su35, looks good in sales brochures. But in reality, zero orders, even losing to legacy F16 in Indonesia in the most recent setback. Su35 may look good in airshows with its TVC but unlikely to be able to get any air forces to pay real money for it.

117S is so advanced that China requested the engine to Russia,

In 2010, when Russia’s Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov was on visit to China, Beijing proposed to buy 117C engines, but the offer was turned down.

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you did not care to read, but the Russian defence minister was asked by the Chinese to sell 117s but Russia rejected the chinese proposal and replied buy us the whole jet

You only have two options

Call Russia’s Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov a liar

or

admit it is true