China Flanker Thread II

[rhino123]

Five years ago the Russians wouldn't sell their most advanced fighters to China. So it's pretty irrlevant unless they're willing to sell what China needs. So it's safe to say if the Su-35 is far superior to anything China has, it wouldn't be sold. Since they're trying to sell it to China, it must not be at most that much better than what China is capable domestically.

Er... don't really understand that.

ten years ago, five years ago or even now, Russia or any countries in the world will not sell their most advance fighters or system to any country, until they have something better in their arsenal. So how come it is safe to say that if the Su-35 is far superior to anything China has, it wouldn't be sold? Why would the Russian try to sell something that is inferior to what China or any country already has? Wouldn't it be for nought (remember, even marketing of a product cost money).

If it was said that if the Su-35 represent the highest technology that the Russian had, then it would be safe to say that that aircraft will not be offered to any international customers, at least the same one that will be flown in Russia (downgraded version might still be offered).

 

[MiG-29]

Five years ago the Russians wouldn't sell their most advanced fighters to China. So it's pretty irrlevant unless they're willing to sell what China needs. So it's safe to say if the Su-35 is far superior to anything China has, it wouldn't be sold. Since they're trying to sell it to China, it must not be at most that much better than what China is capable domestically.

That is uncorrect, China stopped the license of Su-27s, stopped the import of　russian kits, and decided to build a modified chinese Su-27.


in MAKS 2009, Rosoboronexport`s general manager Anatoli Isaykin said Russia was going to investigate the J-11B chinese copy of Su-27 and Sukhoi was part of the process.


Об этом, как сообщает РИА Новости, заявил 19 августа на авиасалоне МАКС-2009 гендиректор "Рособоронэкспорта" Анатолий Исайкин.

"То, что китайская сторона внешне скопировала Су-27, - это то, о чем говорила российская сторона. Может быть, это факт. ... Это свойство такой сложной техники - когда "внешность" может быть одна, а начинка - другой. Приходится разбираться многие месяцы и даже годы, является ли это точной копией (Су-27), начинка может быть другая",
Приходится разбираться многие месяцы и даже годы, является ли это точной копией (Су-27), начинка может быть другая", - отметил Исайкин. Он также уточнил, что в настоящее время идут длительные разбирательства по этому поводу с участием компании "Сухой" других организаций.

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In 2010 at Shuhai, Alexander Miheev also from Rosoboronexport was in talks with the Chinese side to investigate Chinese production of weapons that Russia considered were copycats without license

В прошлом месяце, после церемонии открытия авиасалона Airshow China-2010 в Чжухае, Александр Михеев, заместитель главы «Рособоронэкспорта», заявил, что китайские представители согласились обсудить проблему, связанную с подозрениями о нелегальном производстве российской военной техники в Китае

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It seems China and Russia came into an agreement, and this paved the way for Sukhoi`s pitch of the Su-35 in the Chinese market

 

[AssassinsMace]

Five years ago these very same people perpetuating this story about selling the Su-35 to China were laughing how Russia wouldn't sell advanced Flankers like the MKI level to China. So it's incorrect to believe Russia kept only the best stuff for themselves and no one else also meaning they sold better stuff to other countries and not China.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Look, to claim the J11B is better than the SU35 is not being objective. Adding composite materials or not, the J11B is still the original airframe designed some 30 years ago (for China, it was in a "just copy and make plenty of, with compatibility to own weaponry" era). The SU35, on the other hand, was updated with more recent design trends. It is the "ultimate" bird of the Flanker family, with new capabilities that seen before in a Flanker.

However, its incremental improvements, together with its price tag, just cannot find its customer in today's market place. As someone else in this forum pointed out, it is a few years too late to market! Had it come out five years ago, it might have a completely different fate. As is, countries that can afford it would rather wait a few years for stealth. As for China, I am sure their engineers would love to get their hands on a few to play with, but not at the cost of 50 birds!

So, both sides are correct: It's a better Flanker, but China won't buy, for reasons that Rhino123 summed up very nicely in earlier post.

I think your on it here Yorkie, my only addition is that the T-50 is the ultimate Flanker, OVT in spite of its critics is most helpfull to the Flanker family as it aids pitch transitions at any airspeed, and it makes a real airshow bird out of the Flanker. I should also point out that the Russians are still the master showman, but a fellow needs to have a coupla steel ones to exercise the Flanker as they do, I'm not sure your average "dude" is up to a ride along, much less to employ it to its fullest potential, my GSXR 1000 will supposedly top end around 186 mph, or 312 km, given that its ten years old, mine might top out well north or 170mph, now aside from the fact that the speed limit on rural two lanes is 55mph, I did see about 130mph on my O4, my point is I really ain't that curious about how fast it is. I doubt many fighter pilots Chinese, Russian or Indian are willing to Fly the Flanker to her limits, and I'm quite certain that a Russian SU-35 could give the sweet little J-10 a run for its money, but as I said, OVT is a game changer. Now having said that the post-stall regime and supermanueverability have gone out of style, but it will be back, it always is, and in spite of us all talking about BVR, fighter pilots have to have a positive ID to go guns up, I doubt that is always going to be possible BVR. But then again I am the "OLD Air Force Brat". The engineer is beginning to sell me on the J-10, but I'm still a Flanker Fan, and I really like the J-15.

 

[MiG-29]

Five years ago these very same people perpetuating this story about selling the Su-35 to China were laughing how Russia wouldn't sell advanced Flankers like the MKI level to China. So it's incorrect to believe Russia kept only the best stuff for themselves and no one else also meaning they sold better stuff to other countries and not China.

5 years ago China and Russia had a disagreement about the Su-27 license i guess it is more or less fixed, India to the contrary has a very smooth record with the Su-30MKI and other Russian jets, while MiG-21 in India was never sold to third parties; China has sold russian fighters calling them J-7s, J-6s when in reality are MiG-21s and MiG-19s and stopped the Su-27 license, Russia had economic loses because the original license was for russian components to be fitted to the Su-27s build in China.

So for the Russian side the Su-35 is not the best russian fighter, and probably up to recent years they have come to an agreement about the J-11/Su-27 license and are willing to sell the Su-35 but only if a large number is bought.

The Su-35 will be sold over seas and exported, simply because not all nations can buy stealth fighters, to China, who knows, but other countries very likely

if you have a doubt watch this video
[video=youtube;KW0x2EDghbE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW0x2EDghbE&feature=channel&list=UL[/video]

 

[rhino123]

The Su-35 will be sold over seas and exported, simply because not all nations can buy stealth fighters, to China, who knows, but other countries very likely

I tend to agree with you on this. However, I might point out, like I have mentioned in my previous threads. Those that can afford stealth aircrafts like India and China, might not want the Su-35 and they have enough other fighters like the J-11B (China) and Su-30MkI (India) to act as fill gap fighters. It really is not about Su-35 being not very good, it simply is that those countries don't need that aircraft, irregardless of whether that aircraft can supercruise, had AESA radar, had great TVC engines.

As to those nations who wanted this bird... well, the sad thing is, they might not be able to afford it. True, to buy 1 or 2 of this birds might be okay, but as most airforce specialist out there... 1 or 2 fighters don't make an air force. Plus, having these aircrafts is one thing... what about logistical support, maintanences, weaponries, etc etc.

So... like I said before, if this aircraft is pushed into the market 10 or 5 years ago when all stealth program are still at their infancy, then this aircraft would make lots of sense as it had all the specification to make it a great plane.

 

[AssassinsMace]

5 years ago China and Russia had a disagreement about the Su-27 license i guess it is more or less fixed, India to the contrary has a very smooth record with the Su-30MKI and other Russian jets, while MiG-21 in India was never sold to third parties; China has sold russian fighters calling them J-7s, J-6s when in reality are MiG-21s and MiG-19s and stopped the Su-27 license, Russia had economic loses because the original license was for russian components to be fitted to the Su-27s build in China.

So for the Russian side the Su-35 is not the best russian fighter, and probably up to recent years they have come to an agreement about the J-11/Su-27 license and are willing to sell the Su-35 but only if a large number is bought.

The Su-35 will be sold over seas and exported, simply because not all nations can buy stealth fighters, to China, who knows, but other countries very likely

if you have a doubt watch this video
[video=youtube;KW0x2EDghbE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW0x2EDghbE&feature=channel&list=UL[/video]

As usual a lot of irrelevant stuff. Has nothing to do with the point that Russia keeps only the best stuff for themselves which the MKI to India says otherwise in regards to China. So the fact is they didn't sell their best exports to China since they would sell them to India and it hasn't anything to do with license agreements since at the same time they would sell MK2s to China. So it was about preventing China having their best stuff they would sell to others. Thus by the simple black and white logic used in here to conclude China isn't satisfied with their domestic fighters and wants the Su-35, The Su-35 can't be that more advanced at most than what China can muster or they wouldn't be trying to sell it to China.

 

[hardware]

there's a lot of fifth gen.fighter technology that China despite massive investment and R n D,unable to master such as TVC,operational AESA,super cruise TF engine.data link..
If China may already the got the key technology, why brought the SU-35?

 

[rhino123]

there's a lot of fifth gen.fighter technology that China despite massive investment and R n D,unable to master such as TVC,operational AESA,super cruise TF engine.data link..
If China may already the got the key technology, why brought the SU-35?

Er... China had not bought the Su-35 (not even sure if China is in any negotiation with Russia on the sales of Su-35). And true, up till now, China didn't have TVC and supercruise in any of their aircrafts, not sure if WS-15 would solve these or not, and what is the status of the WS-15 actually.

 

[MiG-29]

As usual a lot of irrelevant stuff. Has nothing to do with the point that Russia keeps only the best stuff for themselves which the MKI to India says otherwise in regards to China. So the fact is they didn't sell their best exports to China since they would sell them to India and it hasn't anything to do with license agreements since at the same time they would sell MK2s to China. So it was about preventing China having their best stuff they would sell to others. Thus by the simple black and white logic used in here to conclude China isn't satisfied with their domestic fighters and wants the Su-35, The Su-35 can't be that more advanced at most than what China can muster or they wouldn't be trying to sell it to China.

Everything is business



China got a license and Russia supposed to suply components such as engines and avionics.


China stopped the license and copycatted the Su-27 with Chinese components.

Russia sold Su-27s jets built in Russia only after that.

Russia was willing to sell Su-33s only if a large order was requeted by China

India has kept the money flowing, so Sukhoi will prioritize India as a customer.

Today India has bought a stake in PAKFA, there is no need to buy Su-35.


Russia considers that China still lags in engine design, therefore selling Su-35s to China might have a risk of reverse engineering, but the Russians must likely think that risk is worthed if the buy is a large sale.


Only the future will say if China buys it or not, if the Chinese succeed into designing an engine like 117 or F-119, so let us wait.