China Flanker Thread II
- Thread starter sumdud
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I don't really think any future articles on this in the next few months will change from the theme of China is trying to cheat Russia, especially since the only sources they have are the Russians and PKF.
I think the Russians are desperate to sell the su-33 to China except they don't want them to buy a few. They want them to buy lots.
The real question is whether China really desperate to have the su-33. From the evidence so far China might not be that interested in the plane if they have valid domestic options.
The real question is whether China really desperate to have the su-33. From the evidence so far China might not be that interested in the plane if they have valid domestic options.
RedMercury
Junior Member
I agree, especially considering the global economic context. I suspect Russia is trying hard to make a deal, but China is bargaining from the position of someone who does not really need it, thought it may be nice as a backstop for domestic program(s) or a source of technology and ideas. However, another possibility is that China is in a hurry to trade dollars for more useful things.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
Well the "official" Russians put the kibosh on that story catching fire in Western circles about the Su-33 deal being dead because of copying. Tells you something about what's out there on the internet. If the Russians and the Chinese are still cooperating, there must be some sort of understanding between the two. Maybe the Russians are making more money on some other end.
AL-31FN is not used on the J-11B. Its only used on the J-10. The fact that there is no reported Russian engine orders for the J-11B while there is publicized ones for the J-10 tells you something.
On the pictures of the J-11B prototypes just with primer coatings, there is quite a bit of brown and green sections all over the plane that may indicate composite. The standard J-11 fresh from the factory line with only the yellow primer coating tends to have a more uniform yellow appearance.
I see no evidence of RAM coatings outside, but does not discount they are inside the engine tunnel. The engine openings is a prime source of RCS, though that can also be done with using an inlet cover or ramp. This won't be visible however.
The radome on the J-11B is likely to be frequency selective just as similar radomes appear on the J-10, JF-17 and J-8F. An FS radome automatically absorbs and screens out any other radar wave that isn't used by the host radar's frequencies.
Use of composite does not mean RCS reduction, a myth spread in the Internet forums. For composite to be radar absorbent and reduction, it needs to follow a defined structure, similar to a Salisbury screen or Jaumann absorber. The composite cannot allow the radar waves to penetrate and bounce inside the aircraft structure. Basically the whole idea behind structural RAM is to cause radar cancellation using a scheme of reentrant echoing. I don't think this will be used on the J-11B, since these schemes require the whole aircraft including its structure, must be built according to this principle from scratch.
Ferric coatings can be applied as a paint, but you won't be able to determine that visually. I tend to think that ferric based RAM coatings end up being more of a maintenance hassle however, since ferrite exposed to rain and weather leads to rust. So I'm not betting the J-11B will have this.
Since you have a confirmed regiment that has gone online formally and operationally, that would put the number of planes in service equivalent to a regiment, which is about 24 to 28 aircraft. As for the Russian content, it would be a complete Zero. Ordering components means contractual obligations and specifying where the end product is used as a condition of warranty, support and government export rules of declaration. Especially considering how the Russians can be very bureaucratic.
On the pictures of the J-11B prototypes just with primer coatings, there is quite a bit of brown and green sections all over the plane that may indicate composite. The standard J-11 fresh from the factory line with only the yellow primer coating tends to have a more uniform yellow appearance.
I see no evidence of RAM coatings outside, but does not discount they are inside the engine tunnel. The engine openings is a prime source of RCS, though that can also be done with using an inlet cover or ramp. This won't be visible however.
The radome on the J-11B is likely to be frequency selective just as similar radomes appear on the J-10, JF-17 and J-8F. An FS radome automatically absorbs and screens out any other radar wave that isn't used by the host radar's frequencies.
Use of composite does not mean RCS reduction, a myth spread in the Internet forums. For composite to be radar absorbent and reduction, it needs to follow a defined structure, similar to a Salisbury screen or Jaumann absorber. The composite cannot allow the radar waves to penetrate and bounce inside the aircraft structure. Basically the whole idea behind structural RAM is to cause radar cancellation using a scheme of reentrant echoing. I don't think this will be used on the J-11B, since these schemes require the whole aircraft including its structure, must be built according to this principle from scratch.
Ferric coatings can be applied as a paint, but you won't be able to determine that visually. I tend to think that ferric based RAM coatings end up being more of a maintenance hassle however, since ferrite exposed to rain and weather leads to rust. So I'm not betting the J-11B will have this.
Since you have a confirmed regiment that has gone online formally and operationally, that would put the number of planes in service equivalent to a regiment, which is about 24 to 28 aircraft. As for the Russian content, it would be a complete Zero. Ordering components means contractual obligations and specifying where the end product is used as a condition of warranty, support and government export rules of declaration. Especially considering how the Russians can be very bureaucratic.
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Are you referring to the goal is to have zero Russian components or are you saying that the current J-11B have zero Russian components?
The later is a rather bold statement to make.
I'm saying that the J-11B you see right now going to the 1st Division absolutely has no Russian components. Nein, Nada, completely Chinese down to the last screw and bolt. Mind if you want me to emphasize that again since I'm not through.
SAC originally wanted to have some Russian components on the plane to speed up development and production process years ago but that was denied by the Russians. That was the original Plan A. So they shift to Plan B, complete and utter 100% indigenization.
RedMercury
Junior Member
I understand the production bottle necks for the J-11B are the advanced welding for the airframes and engine production. I wonder if the imported Su-27 and licensed production J-11 will receive radar and fire control upgrades, since that should not interfere with new production.
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