China demographics thread.

Jiang ZeminFanboy

Senior Member
Registered Member


These responses hit the nail on the head.

I rather china be at 400 mil people with the per capita income and advanced technology like the US than large population of over a billion with a shitty per capital GDP like some other south asian country.


BTW that poster is not state media lol. He actually works for an anti China leaning NGO but twitter is so racist that they just put him as state media hahahaha.
Zichen Wang just recently left China state media, he was working for Xinhua if I remember correctly.

The problem with 400 million China is, until you get stable population of 400m with TFR at about 2, firstly you will need to get there from 1.4B, and current level of 1.08 TFR, what it means? It means that every year the level of old population will grow, I am shooting now, but if TFR stays at that level I guess the China's of 400m population will be like 70% grandpas and grandmas and the rest 30% youth and middle age.

Anyway that far projection are not realistic, the 400m China if TFR stays the same is first decades of next century.

What I would focus is to try to get China to increase the TFR to 1.6 or 1.7. I think this is realistic goal and even when population will be still decreasing with that level of TFR the balance of population won't look that tragic, and China won't become the nation of grandpas.
 

Topazchen

Junior Member
Registered Member


These responses hit the nail on the head.

I rather china be at 400 mil people with the per capita income and advanced technology like the US than large population of over a billion with a shitty per capital GDP like some other south asian country.


BTW that poster is not state media lol. He actually works for an anti China leaning NGO but twitter is so racist that they just put him as state media hahahaha.
Having a high population and Western level per capita income are not mutually exclusive. The same war not all countries with Singapore level population are developed.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Zichen Wang just recently left China state media, he was working for Xinhua if I remember correctly.

The problem with 400 million China is, until you get stable population of 400m with TFR at about 2, firstly you will need to get there from 1.4B, and current level of 1.08 TFR, what it means? It means that every year the level of old population will grow, I am shooting now, but if TFR stays at that level I guess the China's of 400m population will be like 70% grandpas and grandmas and the rest 30% youth and middle age.

Anyway that far projection are not realistic, the 400m China if TFR stays the same is first decades of next century.

What I would focus is to try to get China to increase the TFR to 1.6 or 1.7. I think this is realistic goal and even when population will be still decreasing with that level of TFR the balance of population won't look that tragic, and China won't become the nation of grandpas.
If China can't arrest the TFR collapse before it reaches 400 million, there's no reason to believe it will do so after it reaches 400 million.

I don't understand certain posts above saying "oh, it's fine; everything is fine" to a scenario like that. No, it is not fine. If China's population falls to 400 million by 2100, it'll mean that China has failed in its attempt to slow demographic decline. In that case, 400 million will become 200 million in another generation, and then 100 million, and so on until the nation is either extinct or irrelevant.

As for mass immigration as a solution, that doesn't work with a population the size of China's. Although, it has happened before in Chinese history. The Eastern Jin Dynasty mass imported "barbarians" to make up for catastrophic population loss as a result of the civil wars near the end of the Han Dynasty. The eventual result was that the "five barbarians" revolted against Eastern Jin rule and established their own dynasties, taking over all of northern China, thus starting centuries of "barbarian" rule in the north. The subsequent Age of Fragmentation was one of the most violent and chaotic periods of Chinese history.

Lesson? You can't replace a large fraction of the population with immigrants in a generation and expect it'll all work out the same. Those immigrants will come with their own cultures and identities. They won't "feel" Chinese and they won't be loyal to the Chinese nation.

The only reason the US was able to avoid this is because it never had an identity to begin with. Everybody was an immigrant, so there was no common culture; consequently, loyalties grouped around "race" and racial conflict was constant. However, the US kept the "white" race the majority for most of its history and played divide and conquer with blacks, Latinos, Asians, etc., so it avoided a successful racial revolt. But we see how American conservatives today are fearful of such a event now that the white population is on the decline; that story has yet to end.
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Having a high population and Western level per capita income are not mutually exclusive. The same war not all countries with Singapore level population are developed.
It is if you belong to nations that can't even develop the most basic of education, infrastructures or even feed its own people.

If China can't arrest the TFR collapse before it reaches 400 million, there's no reason to believe it will do so after it reaches 400 million.

I don't understand certain posts above saying "oh, it's fine; everything is fine" to a scenario like that. No, it is not fine. If China's population falls to 400 million by 2100, it'll mean that China has failed in its attempt to slow demographic decline. In that case, 400 million will become 200 million in another generation, and then 100 million, and so on until the nation is either extinct or irrelevant.

As for mass immigration as a solution, that doesn't work with a population the size of China's. Although, it has happened before in Chinese history. The Eastern Jin Dynasty mass imported "barbarians" to make up for catastrophic population loss as a result of the civil wars near the end of the Han Dynasty. The eventual result was that the "five barbarians" revolted against Eastern Jin rule and established their own dynasties, taking over all of northern China, thus starting centuries of "barbarian" rule in the north. The subsequent Age of Fragmentation was one of the most violent and chaotic periods of Chinese history.

Lesson? You can't replace a large fraction of the population with immigrants in a generation and expect it'll all work out the same. Those immigrants will come with their own cultures and identities. They won't "feel" Chinese and they won't be loyal to the Chinese nation.

The only reason the US was able to avoid this is because it never had an identity to begin with. Everybody was an immigrant, so there was no nation to be loyal to. This is also why "race" became the main identity in the US - because there was no unified culture.
I'm sorry dude but even entertaining that post is by itself retarded.

Human behavior changes every single year depending on how much crowding there is, what type of benefits exist, whether there is a pandemic or not going on, etc. It is nothing short of retardation to see because of a hypothetical decrease of population in the future and then use that to continously subtract population until there's none left. Just lmao. To believe this, one must have like 80 iq and maybe be stunted in growth from insufficient nutrition.

As there's more space and more resources for a smaller population, there would be baby booms as people seek to take advantage of it.

A healthy population curve should be slow sine shaped.

China must keep providing more benefits, which will naturally happen as the economy is booming, and then simply tank reduced growth in the 2050-2070s. Being the no1 economy, it is not a big deal to have reduced growth unless everyone else catches up. And they won't because the other large economies have anemic af growth. The huge population created by the post ww2 baby boom is not a state that should be continously encouraged.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
It is if you belong to nations that can't even develop the most basic of education, infrastructures or even feed its own people.


I'm sorry dude but even entertaining that post is by itself retarded.

Human behavior changes every single year depending on how much crowding there is, what type of benefits exist, whether there is a pandemic or not going on, etc. It is nothing short of retardation to see because of a hypothetical decrease of population in the future and then use that to continously subtract population until there's none left. Just lmao. To believe this, one must have like 80 iq and maybe be stunted in growth from insufficient nutrition.

As there's more space and more resources for a smaller population, there would be baby booms as people seek to take advantage of it.

A healthy population curve should be slow sine shaped.

China must keep providing more benefits, which will naturally happen as the economy is booming, and then simply tank reduced growth in the 2050-2070s. Being the no1 economy, it is not a big deal to have reduced growth unless everyone else catches up. And they won't because the other large economies have anemic af growth. The huge population created by the post ww2 baby boom is not a state that should be continously encouraged.
That I agree with. The projections are alarmist. If we simply took 2022 numbers and extrapolated it to 2100 to say China will reach 400 million, that’s no different from taking 1970 numbers and extrapolating it to 2050 to say China will reach 3 billion. That original projection was why there was so much hysteria around over population back in the day (which contributed to the one child policy decision). We now know it was ridiculous, as populations naturally decline with development.

There’s no predicting the future with TFR, but I think raising the alarm is fine (to guide policy) as long as people realize it’s an alarm and not prophecy. What I took issue was is the idea that this kind of decline is a positive development if it actually happened.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
That I agree with. The projections are alarmist. If we simply took 2022 numbers and extrapolated it to 2100 to say China will reach 400 million, that’s no different from taking 1970 numbers and extrapolating it to 2050 to say China will reach 3 billion. That original projection was why there was so much hysteria around over population back in the day (which contributed to the one child policy decision). We now know it was ridiculous, as populations naturally decline with development.

There’s no predicting the future with TFR, but I think raising the alarm is fine (to guide policy) as long as people realize it’s an alarm and not prophecy.
Not even alarmist but retarded and likely the coping of a certain underdeveloped nation whose only advantage over literally any random third world country is sheer population numbers.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
I'm sorry dude but even entertaining that post is by itself retarded.

Human behavior changes every single year depending on how much crowding there is, what type of benefits exist, whether there is a pandemic or not going on, etc. It is nothing short of retardation to see because of a hypothetical decrease of population in the future and then use that to continously subtract population until there's none left. Just lmao. To believe this, one must have like 80 iq and maybe be stunted in growth from insufficient nutrition.

As there's more space and more resources for a smaller population, there would be baby booms as people seek to take advantage of it.

A healthy population curve should be slow sine shaped.

China must keep providing more benefits, which will naturally happen as the economy is booming, and then simply tank reduced growth in the 2050-2070s. Being the no1 economy, it is not a big deal to have reduced growth unless everyone else catches up. And they won't because the other large economies have anemic af growth. The huge population created by the post ww2 baby boom is not a state that should be continously encouraged.
Why would fertility rates change in the future? What's retarded is thinking that a problem will fix itself magically with no intervention. Economic growth alone will not improve fertility rates.

If the same circumstances exist that created the current problem, unless they are corrected the problem will continue to remain the same in the future.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member


These responses hit the nail on the head.

I rather china be at 400 mil people with the per capita income and advanced technology like the US than large population of over a billion with a shitty per capital GDP like some other south asian country.


BTW that poster is not state media lol. He actually works for an anti China leaning NGO but twitter is so racist that they just put him as state media hahahaha.
All those responses aren't actually solutions. They've all been brought up in this thread and have been debunked.

Saying "China's birth situation is a problem" is not sinophobic any more than saying "China's affording housing crisis is a problem". It's a valid problem that needs to be addressed.
 
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