China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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no_name

Colonel
Conventional IC-HGV remove range issues completely with regards to striking US carriers anywhere in the world, targeting capabilities permitting.

Now you have your greatest assets turned into hostages.
And if a strike is not targeting US mainland, a hard sell to give back a nuclear response.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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MAD is not equivalent to nuclear parity, China does not have to match the US warhead for warhead to achieve MAD, They just need to credibly guarantee unacceptable damage to the US. Say if they can guarantee enough warheads to land on top 50 population centers it constitute unacceptable damage, IMO China has that capability already.

I never specified that MAD requires China to necessarily have the same number of nuclear warheads and delivery vehicles as the US.
I meant MAD/MV "with regards to" the US.


Now let me take a step back and say China does not have MAD. Since you're speculating the role of IC-HGV in the context of a possible future where US has ramped up their ABM interceptors to orders of magnitude of what they have now; Wouldn't it be fair for me to speculate the role of IC-HGV in a possible future where China has achieved MAD status? Considering the price tag on those ABM system I'd say it is much easier for China in ramp up ICBMs than for US to ramp up interceptors.

Not quite fair, because my suggestion for IC-HGV's role, is that it is being pursued to preempt and mitigate concerns over a US strategic response to an increase in China's ICBM arsenal (i.e.: seeking substantial strategic ranged BMD), to ensure that MAD/MV can be attained.
By contrast, the idea of using IC-HGV in a conventional role against CONTUS, operates on the assumption that MAD/MV has already been attained and is secure.

Putting it another way -- I believe that attaining MAD/MV may prove to be challenging in itself and the US will react strongly in a manner to try to maintain their superiority of enforcing greater vulnerability on China, therefore the IC-HGV is part of the way of the PLA's way of ensuring it is achieved. Whereas your position is assuming that MAD/MV has already been attained.


Policy wise; China can simply announce any attack on Chinese homeland will be met with proportional response in the form of IC-HGV be it conventional or nuclear. This policy is plain and simple, easy to understand and perfectly credible.

Place yourself in the position of US decision maker, say you decide to ignore the warning and attack Chinese homeland anyway, afterward you see a solitary ICBM launch towards you, would you just trigger a standard response knowing MAD is assured or would you rather wait and see?

The idea that the US would so easily give up its overwhelming geographical and military advantage in being able to conventionally strike the Chinese mainland while protecting its own CONTUS from conventional strikes is... understandable, but dubious.

In your situation, if I were the US, I would proclaim in turn that any detected intercontinental attack on the US homeland would be met with launch on warning use of tactical nuclear weapons against relevant military targets against the foe who conducted them, as it would be able to be trusted or ascertained if the munitions were conventional or nuclear, as a method of deterring China from launching conventional strikes against CONTUS to begin with, then by leaving the MAD ball in China's corner afterwards once the US has launched tactical nukes in response.


Now, I understand where you and others are coming from.
There is a desire to make it such that the Chinese mainland is as equally "untouchable" by the US, as CONTUS is "untouchable" by the PLA, in both the conventional and nuclear sense.
However, the relative vulnerability of each side's homelands is a function of geography and positioning of military forces, and it is not something that can merely be equalized by MAD and long range strike weapons.
The US has long held the capability to strike and bomb nations around the world with relative impunity, while retaining security and what is more or less "invulnerability" in its own hemisphere, with the one exception being that they remain vulnerable to nuclear delivery systems (i.e.: ICBMs).
I do not see the US giving up this massive privilege of relative homeland invulnerability without significant brinksmanship of its own, and it is that brinksmanship and the inability of us to predict or assess what said brinksmanship would look like (aka, evolution of US nuclear doctrine over the next 10-15 years) that makes me very cautious when talking about the idea of intercontinental ranged strikes against the US.
I am seeing this quaint idea whereby once China has MAD, they can simply procure some conventional IC-HGVs, and then try to deter US conventional strikes against the Chinese homeland by holding a few targets in CONTUS to conventional risk, but this ignores the massive advantages that the US holds in geographical positioning of military forces in the region and the significantly greater ability to deliver quantities of munitions (whether it be conventional or nuclear) to Chinese population/economic/political/industrial centers, than what China is able to deliver to the US, that cannot be remedied short of use of strategic counter value nuclear weapons.
 

enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
I believe that attaining MAD/MV may prove to be challenging in itself and the US will react strongly in a manner to try to maintain their superiority of enforcing greater vulnerability on China,

I disagree that achieve MAD is challenging for China, even taking into account future US ABM capabilities. A race between ICBM and interceptor favor the ICBM, since interceptor number need to match warhead numbers + decoy numbers. If the US decide to make herself 100% invulnerable by building interceptors China would be happy to let US bankrupt herself. And I haven't even taken IC-HGV into account, it will invalidate ABM completely if China decide to adopt it en-masse.

In your situation, if I were the US, I would proclaim in turn that any detected intercontinental attack on the US homeland would be met with launch on warning use of tactical nuclear weapons against relevant military targets against the foe who conducted them, as it would be able to be trusted or ascertained if the munitions were conventional or nuclear, as a method of deterring China from launching conventional strikes against CONTUS to begin with, then by leaving the MAD ball in China's corner afterwards once the US has launched tactical nukes in response.

And then a tactical nuclear response from US will then trigger another proportional tactical nuclear response from China, we can play this game ad-infinitum. If you are to assume US is willing to go to such length to play nuclear brinkmanship you need to assume China is willing to do the same.

I am seeing this quaint idea whereby once China has MAD, they can simply procure some conventional IC-HGVs, and then try to deter US conventional strikes against the Chinese homeland by holding a few targets in CONTUS to conventional risk, but this ignores the massive advantages that the US holds in geographical positioning of military forces in the region and the significantly greater ability to deliver quantities of munitions (whether it be conventional or nuclear) to Chinese population/economic/political/industrial centers, than what China is able to deliver to the US, that cannot be remedied short of use of strategic counter value nuclear weapons.

Yes, the US have massive conventional strike advantages, the volume of fire from cruise missiles and bombers of course greatly out match that of IC-HGVs. But modern day infrastructure is extremely vulnerable and valuable compared to that of say in the WW2, hitting a financial center or semiconductor foundry can set a nation back for decade and cause immense damage to economy. This modern day vulnerability is a great equalizer, it doesn't matter whether the US can hit harder, as long as China can hit hard enough.

You're saying how the US would be extremely unwilling to give up their advantages, of course they would not be happy about it.... but then China would also be extremely unwilling to be subject to blackmail by the US on this front. US is willing to play brinkmanship over it and so does China.

China won't discuss it with US, they will simply announce the policy. Whether the US play ball or not it's up to the US, I'm afraid it is a necessary risk of doing business.
 

bajingan

Senior Member
I disagree that achieve MAD is challenging for China, even taking into account future US ABM capabilities. A race between ICBM and interceptor favor the ICBM, since interceptor number need to match warhead numbers + decoy numbers. If the US decide to make herself 100% invulnerable by building interceptors China would be happy to let US bankrupt herself. And I haven't even taken IC-HGV into account, it will invalidate ABM completely if China decide to adopt it en-masse.
This, most americans don't realize that China only spends about 1.7% GDP on defence compared to us 3.4%
China can easily double her defence spending if she wanted to
If with just 1.7% of GDP China can have the largest navy in the world, hypersonic missiles, stealth fighters, ICBMs, imagine what she can do with 3% of GDP defence spending
And with inflation already at historic high in the us, i highly doubt the us can afford another arms race against China
In fact i have a sneaky feeling China is trying to bait the us into an arms race
You can see with the recent revelations about China new silo fields, FOBS testing, new stealth bomber as if challenging america to come up with countermeasures
 
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enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
This, most americans don't realize that China only spends about 1.7% GDP on defence compared to us 3.4%
China can easily double her defence spending if she wanted to
If with just 1.7% of GDP China can have the largest navy in the world, hypersonic missiles, stealth fighters, ICBMs, imagine what she can do with 3% of GDP defence spending
And with inflation already at historic high in the us, i highly doubt the us can afford another arms race against China
In fact i have a sneaky feeling China is trying to bait the us into an arms race
You can see with the recent revelations about China new silo fields, FOBS testing, new stealth bomber as if challenging america to come up with countermeasures

Well it takes two to tango, China can't bait the US into anything if the US is not hell bent on exerting dominance...

Edit: Although I won't proclaim "largest navy" with such confidence, we all know how much water it holds haha.... In time maybe
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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I disagree that achieve MAD is challenging for China, even taking into account future US ABM capabilities. A race between ICBM and interceptor favor the ICBM, since interceptor number need to match warhead numbers + decoy numbers. If the US decide to make herself 100% invulnerable by building interceptors China would be happy to let US bankrupt herself. And I haven't even taken IC-HGV into account, it will invalidate ABM completely if China decide to adopt it en-masse.

You have just described my exact position for why I think the PLA is developing the IC-HGV, so it has a guarantee for ensuring MAD in the event of a strategic BMD capability which is of sufficient capability to make the US think it can "come out ahead" in a MAD exchange.


And then a tactical nuclear response from US will then trigger another proportional tactical nuclear response from China, we can play this game ad-infinitum. If you are to assume US is willing to go to such length to play nuclear brinkmanship you need to assume China is willing to do the same.

The brinksmanship here is being initiated here, in this situation by China.
The notion that intercontinental strikes could be launched against the US as a deterrent, to attain a manner where they are of "equal vulnerability," is ludicrous.



Yes, the US have massive conventional strike advantages, the volume of fire from cruise missiles and bombers of course greatly out match that of IC-HGVs. But modern day infrastructure is extremely vulnerable and valuable compared to that of say in the WW2, hitting a financial center or semiconductor foundry can set a nation back for decade and cause immense damage to economy. This modern day vulnerability is a great equalizer, it doesn't matter whether the US can hit harder, as long as China can hit hard enough.

You're saying how the US would be extremely unwilling to give up their advantages, of course they would not be happy about it.... but then China would also be extremely unwilling to be subject to blackmail by the US on this front. US is willing to play brinkmanship over it and so does China.

China won't discuss it with US, they will simply announce the policy. Whether the US play ball or not it's up to the US, I'm afraid it is a necessary risk of doing business.

If China doesn't want to be subject to blackmail by the US, it would have to deny the US the means with which it can be blackmailed -- i.e.: the PLA would have to possess the conventional capabilities to deny and remove the US from the western pacific and its bases and power projection platforms, which is the basis of the US advantage in being able to strike the Chinese homeland while keeping the US homeland secure.

The best case scenario if China tries to pull what you suggest, is that the US continues to conventionally bomb the Chinese mainland, China ends up launching a few conventional IC-HGVs to CONTUS, and then the US just continues to intensify conventional bombing of China.
The worst case scenario is that the US continues to conventionally bomb the Chinese mainland, China ends up launching a few conventional IC-HGVs to CONTUS, and then the US uses tactical nuclear weapons against select Chinese mainland targets, and then China has the joyous task of thinking whether it wants to respond with tactical nuclear weapons and whether they want to use them against US territory or against US forces in the western pacific region instead.

The difference in physical strategic depth between the US and China on the global scale is very different, and people should not delude themselves in thinking MAD can remove it. When the conflict is being fought very close to the last lines of defense on China's doorstep very close to its population/economic/industrial centers -- which is simultaneously very far from US population/economic/industrial centers -- that has a real effect in the way each side is realistically willing to escalate to preserve their own security, and the expectations of how secure they believe they are.
 

enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
You have just described my exact position for why I think the PLA is developing the IC-HGV, so it has a guarantee for ensuring MAD in the event of a strategic BMD capability which is of sufficient capability to make the US think it can "come out ahead" in a MAD exchange.

So you and I can both agree MAD is maintainable. I'll add that if MAD is maintained then conventionally armed IC-HGV is a logical component given my reasoning.

The brinksmanship here is being initiated here, in this situation by China.
The notion that intercontinental strikes could be launched against the US as a deterrent, to attain a manner where they are of "equal vulnerability," is ludicrous.

The brinksmanship is initiated when US decide to hit Chinese homeland. But this discussion of who hit who first is entirely pointless so lets not go there, what matters is who can do what.

If China doesn't want to be subject to blackmail by the US, it would have to deny the US the means with which it can be blackmailed -- i.e.: the PLA would have to possess the conventional capabilities to deny and remove the US from the western pacific and its bases and power projection platforms, which is the basis of the US advantage in being able to strike the Chinese homeland while keeping the US homeland secure.

It is not an either or situation, PLA will continue improving both their conventional capabilities and strategic deterrence. IC-HGV gives China another card and they will use it to the full.

The best case scenario if China tries to pull what you suggest, is that the US continues to conventionally bomb the Chinese mainland, China ends up launching a few conventional IC-HGVs to CONTUS, and then the US just continues to intensify conventional bombing of China.
The worst case scenario is that the US continues to conventionally bomb the Chinese mainland, China ends up launching a few conventional IC-HGVs to CONTUS, and then the US uses tactical nuclear weapons against select Chinese mainland targets, and then China has the joyous task of thinking whether it wants to respond with tactical nuclear weapons and whether they want to use them against US territory or against US forces in the western pacific region instead.

I have no illusion that China will not suffer massively more damage compared to the US in this scenario, I have already explained China can hit hard enough with relatively fewer munitions. If the US do hit China with tactical nuclear weapons the choice for China would be obvious, hit back on US homeland with tactical nukes without a doubt, US forces is optional if China has spares, next step is MAD. There is really no ambiguity as to how those things will go is there?

Look, let me put it this way. China is presenting the US with a menu; menu A costs this much, menu B costs that much....etc. US used to be able to enjoy those meals without paying, China says now you have to pay and the prices are listed.

Whether US is willing to pay for these actions is non of China's business, all China needs to be concerned with is that those price are extracted without exception. The rest is up to US decision makers.

The US will need to think is it worth it to go down this path. Suffering a naval defeat is far more preferable to complete devastation in homeland and this is true for both China and US. Having a fixed cost associated to those actions is there to ensure a naval fight remains naval, the alternative is limited strike with possible escalation to MAD. Now why won't China adopt this policy?

The difference in physical strategic depth between the US and China on the global scale is very different, and people should not delude themselves in thinking MAD can remove it. When the conflict is being fought very close to the last lines of defense on China's doorstep very close to its population/economic/industrial centers -- which is simultaneously very far from US population/economic/industrial centers -- that has a real effect in the way each side is realistically willing to escalate to preserve their own security, and the expectations of how secure they believe they are.

What you are saying is status quo, what I'm saying is changing the status quo. Strategic depth means nothing to intercontinental weapons and if asymmetric deterrence is an option then China will adopt it in a heart beat. The US may feel upset that all this investment goes to waste but it won't change the ground reality.
 
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Hadoren

Junior Member
Registered Member
The worst case scenario is that the US continues to conventionally bomb the Chinese mainland, China ends up launching a few conventional IC-HGVs to CONTUS, and then the US uses tactical nuclear weapons against select Chinese mainland targets, and then China has the joyous task of thinking whether it wants to respond with tactical nuclear weapons and whether they want to use them against US territory or against US forces in the western pacific region instead.
The response is very obvious.

You use tactical nuclear weapons against all the regional American military bases. You wipe them all out.

You also use tactical nuclear weapons against American military production. You wipe out the following.
  • The F-35 factories, such as at Forth Worth.
  • The single American nuclear submarine and aircraft carrier shipyard at Newport News.
  • Ballistic missile defenses.
  • Australia.
  • Anything else annoying in America, like the NYT headquarters.
America's regional military forces and overall military production will thus have been deleted. Australia will also joyfully cease being irritating, and the NYT will finally pay for writing so much fake news about China. America's only way left to directly harm China will be lobbing ICBM's (although aircraft carriers are a worry). And if the conflict ends in an ICBM contest, I'm confident China will do well.
  • China has a bigger land mass.
  • China has a more rural population.
  • China has a bigger population.
  • China has the CCP.
 

VioletsForSpring

New Member
Registered Member
The response is very obvious.

You use tactical nuclear weapons against all the regional American military bases. You wipe them all out.

You also use tactical nuclear weapons against American military production. You wipe out the following.
  • The F-35 factories, such as at Forth Worth.
  • The single American nuclear submarine and aircraft carrier shipyard at Newport News.
  • Ballistic missile defenses.
  • Australia.
  • Anything else annoying in America, like the NYT headquarters.
America's regional military forces and overall military production will thus have been deleted. Australia will also joyfully cease being irritating, and the NYT will finally pay for writing so much fake news about China. America's only way left to directly harm China will be lobbing ICBM's (although aircraft carriers are a worry). And if the conflict ends in an ICBM contest, I'm confident China will do well.
  • China has a bigger land mass.
  • China has a more rural population.
  • China has a bigger population.
  • China has the CCP.
This is pretty nonsensical, hitting American command and control/ major population centers with nuclear weapons, regardless of yield, is an invitation to a massive retaliation. Not to mention US tactical SLBM capability. Once the nuclear step is taken, Shanghai and all the other cities that hold the manufacturing base start looking like a pretty target with all those fancy lights at night, yaknow?
 
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