China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Is the sure to be significant cost of manufacturing these intercontinental ranged HGVs really worth wasting them on conventional strikes?

We should agree that the nuclear deterrence application of this platform takes priority. This goes without requiring proof because the proof is self evident.

Therefore, it is only considered for conventional use after nuclear warheads on enough IC HGV are armed.

Caveat to this is the non-IC HGV armed on ICBMs like JL-3, DF-41, DF-5B etc etc or whatever and whenever (a matter of speculation but again the proof is self evident and the technology has long been there). How different is it between having your 500 warheads (let's suppose) on ICBM mounted smaller HGVs and having your 500 warheads spread between that option and IC ranged HGVs.

Let's assume the main cost factor is the ICBM booster (since you'll be making a finite and constant number of HGVs to achieve any of those tasks we've supposed) in which case it is far cheaper to build IC HGV compared to DF-41 HGV for the purpose of conventional attack. Now we gotta consider whether if DF-41 HGV that glides at Mach 15 for 1000km is better at delivering nuclear warhead than a Longmarch boosted IC HGV that glides at Mach 20 for 200,000km. Then go back to costs and conventional strikes.

Or is a carrier battle group much more effective at continuous strikes. You'd need 1000s of these IC HGVs just to achieve a relatively menial task like keeping a factory, a dock, and an airfield shut for a few days before strikes stop and repair/rebuilding work starts. A CBG with air and naval superiority can do this much more effectively. Conventional strikes on US mainland would only be considered after equal level strikes on China. US getting to that level would mean the conventional war is pretty much over with a clear winner at which point, nuclear escalation is a serious danger. Is it appropriate to be considering conventional escalations when conventional war is all but over? The IC HGV path will ALWAYS be losing attrition. It is a strategic weapon (the hypothetical conventional IC HGV). It is a dream and a impractical one with very limited realistic usefulness because in every context it has usefulness, the war is over or it is attrition. Better to be armed with nukes in case the path is nuclear escalation. Better to not use if you lose conventional war.

If the only case to be made is made and that is strategic selective strike on extremely high value strategic targets like BMD, well US BMD is very spread out first of all, sensors are spread out and attacks on sensors are paramount to imminent nuclear strikes and will likely be responded to with pre-emptive nuclear action. Again another lose lose lose scenario.

Conventional strike on military targets of extreme value like carriers is believable but there are already other shorter ranged, less expensive and less capable HGVs that fill this purpose as good if not better and at a better price and cost. China's hypersonic missiles that are non glide like Zircon or what artists imagine to be ARRW (or at least one variant of that program) are surely in place if not in testing since those are far easier to pull off than what China's already managed with the many different HGVs it's already flown. A Chinese zircon equivalent has value because it is useful. It's also much easier than IC HGV or ICBM mounted HGV or the reuseable HGV craft China's flown and landed in tests this year. So there goes the argument for anti-shipping. You don't need IC HGV to do anti-shipping that very low tier hypersonic missiles can already do and possibly do much better. All the Zircon and ARRW are are just missiles with scramjets that are appropriately shaped and use the appropriate materials for shorter ranged, simple trajectory, hypersonic dashes well below Mach 20. Can't speak for Avangard and DARPA's HGV program with the family of HGV technology being developed under that program.

BTW Avangard has not been flown or tested once as far as I'm aware. It's only been claimed and not a single test flight announced by Russia or verified? For example the US admits China has test flown "hundreds" of HGV flights over the decade. While China admits to doing 5 or 6 in public announcement which US verifies. None have verified Russia's and Russia itself has not publicly announced that Avangard is armed and in service. No doubt they can pull off ICBM armed HGV which Avangard is. I mean China has very likely done that ages ago given how much further Chinese HGV programs are e.g. reusable hypersonic craft for orbital service test flown this year and the intercontinental ranged glide vehicle that "breaks the laws of physics" - USA.
 

escobar

Brigadier
Translate
CAG organic defences provides formidable AA capabilities, with USAF/SF assets allowing detection and elimination of friendly ships and planes before releasing weapons on top of directing other assets to protect the Group, notably E-2 Hawkeyes and AEGIS ships. To strike at AA ships in the group, one must first penetrate the CAP. Within the terminal guidance phase, interception missiles can predict the paths of and destroy HGVs, thus an emphasis is put on improving HGV maneuverability and minimizing hostile prediction accuracy and interception rates. The HGV's movement timing can be calculated according to the flight envelope of the interceptor and data on earlier enemy interception. That last bit talks about the growing challenge CAG defence is and how the coordinated nature allows maximum destruction while...
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Is the sure to be significant cost of manufacturing these intercontinental ranged HGVs really worth wasting them on conventional strikes?

We should agree that the nuclear deterrence application of this platform takes priority. This goes without requiring proof because the proof is self evident.

Therefore, it is only considered for conventional use after nuclear warheads on enough IC HGV are armed.

Caveat to this is the non-IC HGV armed on ICBMs like JL-3, DF-41, DF-5B etc etc or whatever and whenever (a matter of speculation but again the proof is self evident and the technology has long been there). How different is it between having your 500 warheads (let's suppose) on ICBM mounted smaller HGVs and having your 500 warheads spread between that option and IC ranged HGVs.

Let's assume the main cost factor is the ICBM booster (since you'll be making a finite and constant number of HGVs to achieve any of those tasks we've supposed) in which case it is far cheaper to build IC HGV compared to DF-41 HGV for the purpose of conventional attack. Now we gotta consider whether if DF-41 HGV that glides at Mach 15 for 1000km is better at delivering nuclear warhead than a Longmarch boosted IC HGV that glides at Mach 20 for 200,000km. Then go back to costs and conventional strikes.

Or is a carrier battle group much more effective at continuous strikes. You'd need 1000s of these IC HGVs just to achieve a relatively menial task like keeping a factory, a dock, and an airfield shut for a few days before strikes stop and repair/rebuilding work starts. A CBG with air and naval superiority can do this much more effectively. Conventional strikes on US mainland would only be considered after equal level strikes on China. US getting to that level would mean the conventional war is pretty much over with a clear winner at which point, nuclear escalation is a serious danger. Is it appropriate to be considering conventional escalations when conventional war is all but over? The IC HGV path will ALWAYS be losing attrition. It is a strategic weapon (the hypothetical conventional IC HGV). It is a dream and a impractical one with very limited realistic usefulness because in every context it has usefulness, the war is over or it is attrition. Better to be armed with nukes in case the path is nuclear escalation. Better to not use if you lose conventional war.

If the only case to be made is made and that is strategic selective strike on extremely high value strategic targets like BMD, well US BMD is very spread out first of all, sensors are spread out and attacks on sensors are paramount to imminent nuclear strikes and will likely be responded to with pre-emptive nuclear action. Again another lose lose lose scenario.

Conventional strike on military targets of extreme value like carriers is believable but there are already other shorter ranged, less expensive and less capable HGVs that fill this purpose as good if not better and at a better price and cost. China's hypersonic missiles that are non glide like Zircon or what artists imagine to be ARRW (or at least one variant of that program) are surely in place if not in testing since those are far easier to pull off than what China's already managed with the many different HGVs it's already flown. A Chinese zircon equivalent has value because it is useful. It's also much easier than IC HGV or ICBM mounted HGV or the reuseable HGV craft China's flown and landed in tests this year. So there goes the argument for anti-shipping. You don't need IC HGV to do anti-shipping that very low tier hypersonic missiles can already do and possibly do much better. All the Zircon and ARRW are are just missiles with scramjets that are appropriately shaped and use the appropriate materials for shorter ranged, simple trajectory, hypersonic dashes well below Mach 20. Can't speak for Avangard and DARPA's HGV program with the family of HGV technology being developed under that program.

BTW Avangard has not been flown or tested once as far as I'm aware. It's only been claimed and not a single test flight announced by Russia or verified? For example the US admits China has test flown "hundreds" of HGV flights over the decade. While China admits to doing 5 or 6 in public announcement which US verifies. None have verified Russia's and Russia itself has not publicly announced that Avangard is armed and in service. No doubt they can pull off ICBM armed HGV which Avangard is. I mean China has very likely done that ages ago given how much further Chinese HGV programs are e.g. reusable hypersonic craft for orbital service test flown this year and the intercontinental ranged glide vehicle that "breaks the laws of physics" - USA.

Yes, it is worth building many IC-HGVs for conventional strike

The list of possible high-value targets in the US is a lot bigger than you imagine.
Let's say an Chinese IC-HGV costs in the region of $60M. That compares with

11 US Carriers each costing $5000M+
10 LHDs each costing $1900M
20+ US Bombers each costing $500M+
50+ US Submarines each costing $2800M+

In each of these cases, it's worth expending multiple IC-HGVs to destroy even one of these high-value military targets
Furthermore it's worth IC-HGVs also targeting the construction facilities which build new replacements
For example, the F-35 facilities contain partially completely aircraft worth billions

You'd be talking months or years to rebuild and replace equipment

So from a cost-benefit standpoint, China could justify 1000 IC-HGVs at say $60M each

So let's say IC-HGVs can take out 3 carriers docked at port or drydock. Then you have other targets, say 3 LHDs, 10 submarines, plus say 10 Stealth Bombers on the ground.

That is a total of $107 Billion of military equipment already
And with 1000 IC-HGVs, you could expect to target much more than this

Of course, it only makes sense to focus on conventional strike after a sufficiently large nuclear deterrent exists
And such a buildup would only happen if US-China relations deteriorate further
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Can tac-nukes get some acknowledgment, please? All I see is people talking about tons of TNT and hundreds of kilotons of TNT. Whatever happened to kilotons or hundreds of tons of TNT?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I agree that China is seeking full scale MAD, which is why I believe they would have developed IC-HGVs as a way of ensuring MAD in case the US decided to pursue a robust BMD capability.

If the US does not pursue a robust BMD capability, then I believe the PLA's procurement of IC-HGV will be of smaller scale and/or may look into additional secondary roles for it.

The counter to the US pursuing a more robust BDM capability is more conventional ICBMs, not IC-HGV.

That is because the economics and physics involved makes an arms race between ICBM and BMD massively favours the ICBMs.

That is the kind of arms race China would gladly get into with the US. And I think this shift in power dynamics is something very few people are grasping. China isn’t afraid to go into direct, head-to-head competition with the US anymore, and will actively push the US into such direct competition where China holds the advantage.

Yes, China holds a trump card in IC-HGV, but when would it play that as its opening hand, before any chips are even on the table; when instead it can keep that back and bait the US into piling more and more chips in first?

I will adapt what I wrote to Zeak, and apply it here:
"What kind of conflict scenarios could the PLA seek to conduct a conventional IC-HGV strike against CONTUS? At what stage of the conflict are they in, what are the losses that each side has already suffered? What is the territories occupied or lost? What is the level of strategic alert each side is at? What are the conventional and nuclear forces that each side has lost or retained at this point?"

You seem to be missing the point that the whole game is to be vague about such things to maximise deterrence.

The only thing China may make clear is that it’s IC-HGVs are not nuclear armed. Beyond that, it will maintain a deliberate policy of strategic ambiguity about precisely what the trigger point for China launching them at CONUS will be.

Personally, I think China will use them if the UA starts to go after civilian infrastructure to dissuade future such attacks. But will not launch even if targets on mainland China are hit, so long as those targets are purely military. However, by not making that clear, there is a decent chance the US military would hold off from even trying to hit purely military targets on mainland China for fear of triggering an escalation that will see critical targets on CONUS hit.

Those are all very baseline questions, and very much unknowns, and I think we are massively overreaching if we think we can model behaviours for those kind of hypothetical scenarios, and use those as a bases for justifying that the IC-HGV system will serve as China's "newest, and as yet, only effective conventional strike option against high value targets on CONUS itself".

You seem to be getting stuck on semantics. It doesn’t matter what the precise trigger point is for China to use such weapons conventionally. The only thing that matters is that China had a credible means of hitting targets on CONUS with such weapons.

A core part of that credibility criteria involves being willing and able to use said weapons, and that is precisely what you loose if you make them nuclear. Since then you are not just choosing to strike at targets on CONUS, you are also crossing the nuclear threshold.

Let me reiterate -- I don't think we can rule out the possibility that the IC-HGVs into the future may have a conventional strike role against CONTUS.
It is indeed something we need to consider.
But we are too far away from the level of strategic deterrence and MAD that China has in service to even start entertaining how each side might react.
China’s new ICBM silo fields will be operational before IC-HGVs
Maybe once the PLA has filled up its new missile silos with CONTUS ranged ICBMs, augmented its TEL ICBM force, and has a robust fleet of survivable SSBNs with CONTUS ranged SLBMs (i.e.: established a sufficient credible level of MAD), then we can start thinking about how the US at the high political and strategic levels of decision making, would react to hypothetical IC-HGV conventional strikes against CONTUS.

However I think it is too early right now.
I must ask then, just when do you think the new silo fields would become operational and when do you think the same for IC-HGVs?
I absolutely believe that China committing to MAD (or at least, significantly enhanced nuclear deterrent capability) is a significant massive paradigm in terms of China's threat assessment and existing strategy.

And the only reason that we can have the ability to talk about MAD, is because of the demonstrated infrastructure and systems that we now have clear evidence of.
I do not believe that level of political and strategic posture is something we could have talked about or entertained prior to having significant evidence of it.

Similarly, I do not think we yet have the evidence or preconditions yet to talk about PLA conventional intercontinental strikes against CONTUS as part of its doctrine. That is a significant change and expansion in its strategy and the geopolitical balance that exists, and I think a significant threshold similarly must be reached before it can be considered as a likely doctrine.

And just how do you expect to get evidence for any of those conditions you set out?
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
This is what US want : A sustained bombing campaign against CN
If PLA are not planning for at least an equal counter force conventional strike capability they are not serious enough

If something like the B-21 was used against China's mainland proper I think China would reply with an ICBM launch with either conventional or nuclear weapons depending on the damage done. At best it can be used tactically and that is assuming China wouldn't escalate. The whole bomber program is only good at dealing with 2nd tier nations without a viable nuclear deterrent. Assumptions it would be usable against other nuclear weapon states are a mirage I think.

BTW Avangard has not been flown or tested once as far as I'm aware. It's only been claimed and not a single test flight announced by Russia or verified? For example the US admits China has test flown "hundreds" of HGV flights over the decade. While China admits to doing 5 or 6 in public announcement which US verifies. None have verified Russia's and Russia itself has not publicly announced that Avangard is armed and in service.

No, the Avangard hypersonic glide vehicle has been tested, and it is in active service. It uses the UR-100N as a launcher. In the future once the Sarmat is available it will be launched with that as well. There are also rumors there might be a version launched with the Rubezh solid rocket with lower range. The problem with Avangard is it is really large and the launch vehicle needs a lot of throw weight to launch multiple Avangards. So far this means it is going to be mostly used with the largest liquid rockets which can only be launched from silos.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
No, the Avangard hypersonic glide vehicle has been tested, and it is in active service. It uses the UR-100N as a launcher. In the future once the Sarmat is available it will be launched with that as well. There are also rumors there might be a version launched with the Rubezh solid rocket with lower range. The problem with Avangard is it is really large and the launch vehicle needs a lot of throw weight to launch multiple Avangards. So far this means it is going to be mostly used with the largest liquid rockets which can only be launched from silos.
When was the Avangard tested? Do you know what the gliding distance during the test was?
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Can tac-nukes get some acknowledgment, please? All I see is people talking about tons of TNT and hundreds of kilotons of TNT. Whatever happened to kilotons or hundreds of tons of TNT?
If the Chinese improve the precision ( a question of time), they will be able to use them to target military bases located in third party countries.

I think you've got a good point. But attacking a third party with low yield nukes is a bit much. And there aren't many third parties that far away from China with anti-China US bases. Maybe Australia/NZ, Britain (Deigo Garcia base), Kuwait/ Arab Peninsula bases etc.
 
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