China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
Someone pointed out to me that this part:
Hawkish PRC state media outlets have asserted that the PRC needs 1,000 warheads, while retired PLA officers have suggested that the PRC
should possesses a “mutually assured destruction” capability.
Is probably referring to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
by 杨承军, ex-PLARF officer. I did a summery of that piece in this thread previously:

He went into a lot of information about PLARF in response to Hu's Thousand Warhead Theory, one of which was:

反应时间。已经从我刚刚入伍时的需要几天、数小时缩短到数分钟;能够在敌核武器落地前实施预警核反击
Response time - when I (杨承军) first joined RF/2A response time was measured in days. It has gradually decreased to hours and now minutes. Now we are fully capable of carrying out launch on warning

And sure enough the 2021 report says:
low.jpg

When I did that translation back in Feb I said:
I don't think Hu and Yang are fighting it out with words in the media in this case. Rather I think they are working together to get the word out to those who need to hear it.
I think in this case DoD did get the message.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
The recent news about China's nuclear advancements has encouraged me to collect some thoughts on these developments and put them into a broader strategic framework. I think many of us here felt that this expansion was long overdue, but I didn't appreciate just how much it would improve China's overall position until I thought more deeply about the matter.

I'd like to examine the first and most obvious strategic implication: The impossibility of a large American first strike that relies on missile defense to neutralize the surviving remnants launched in retaliation. Having three large fields of missile silos ready to launch at a moment's notice and completing the necessary early warning systems - primarily ground-based radars and infra-red monitoring satellites - means that any first strike won't have the chance to land before China launches a retaliation so obliterating that it deletes the US from existence. If we are thinking about the escalation ladder in a conflict, China has just matched the US at the highest rung of that ladder and removed any option America had of climbing to that rung.

This in and of itself is a very salutary development; by expanding and improving its arsenal, China has stopped the US from posing an existential threat to it. But there are far subtler benefits to be had than just securing China's survival - as I just mentioned, by filling the gap at the highest rung of the escalation ladder, China has removed from the US the option of climbing to that rung. Let's extend that idea and fill the gaps China has in its escalation ladder from the top down...

While the ICBM silos and Mach 20+ hypersonic glide vehicle tests are well-attested, what follows is mostly my own speculation (although still backed by evidence). Suppose China doesn't just improve its strategic arsenal, but expands and improves its tactical nuclear weapons as well. There have been some indications that it's doing this already - namely the dual nuclear/conventional precision strike role for the DF-26 IRBM. This would match the US's tactical nuclear weapons rung of the escalation ladder, which it would be tempted to escalate to if it's losing a conventional conflict. Having a robust tactical nuclear weapons arsenal gives symmetric responses to China should the US escalate to that level, which precisely ensures that it won't.

An important principle to note here is that freezing the US out from escalation to a certain level on the ladder actually opens up coercive options for China at the levels below it. Having a robust, numerous, and diverse nuclear arsenal allows China freedom of action at the conventional level of conflict, free from the fear that the US might escalate to a nuclear level where China would have no response. This technological advancement would even allow China to deter purely conventional attacks on its homeland (for example, bombardment of its military-industrial infrastructure) by threatening asymmetric tactical nuclear strikes on similar US targets. For example, a very accurate HGV armed with a one kiloton nuclear device (very small by nuclear weapons' standards) fired at a US shipyard following a US attack on a Chinese shipyard would destroy the US shipyard without annihilating the city it's in. I foresee a much expanded role for such tactical nuclear warfighting in Chinese military doctrine in the decades to come.

Now, I imagine that at least some readers would have their hackles raised by this. A (albeit small) nuclear first strike on the US homeland? My response to this objection is that we ought not to be too fixated on the physics of the weapons involved and instead look at the more pertinent factor: the scale of devastation. A one kiloton detonation is around the scale of the Beirut Explosion; do you know how many people died in the Beirut Explosion? 218. By contrast, consider how many people would die in a conventional attack that destroyed the Three Gorges Dam. The relevant principle that should guide China's decision on striking the continental US is a simple one: equality of devastation. If the US wants its homeland untouched, what it must do is very simple - extend China the same courtesy.

While operationally extremely provocative, such a doctrine is (perhaps paradoxically) strategically reactive.

Another mission to consider for the ostensible tac-nuke armed HGV (and future Chinese systems like the H-20 stealth bomber) is strikes against the US's missile defense infrastructure. It's often noted that the test record of missile defense systems against ICBMs is spotty at best and that a sophisticated adversary could easily overcome it. Be that as it may, US decisionmakers believe that their missile defense works and so might contemplate escalation based on the false assumption that they are protected from retaliation. That delusion is a dangerous one for them to entertain, hence they should be promptly disabused of it in a serious crisis.

What would the cumulative effect of China closing the gaps in its escalation ladder from the top down as I've outlined be? First, as I've already mentioned, greatly expanded freedom of action at the conventional level. Second, the psychological impact of such a stark change in the balance of power on US allies will be wrenching. The decision a country like Japan would make in joining the US in a conflict (or even maintaining a formal alliance) depends ultimately on considerations of its own survival - nobody is going to tag along with the US on a suicide mission. A US ally like Japan understands that if the US can't escalate to the nuclear level to protect it, China could maul it solely with conventional weapons and the US would have no response. Countries throughout the western Pacific would start to see a security relationship with the US as an ever increasing liability, and it would not escape their notice that the US can ultimately leave the region while they can't. Third, China's conventional buildup has reached such a point that the US is seriously contemplating losing a conflict. What usually happened historically when a state perceived its position so dramatically weakening was it launched a war out of desperation and "now or never" thinking. An expanded Chinese nuclear arsenal and the credible threat of its use prevents the US from launching such a war.

Having said this, I don't believe that a war with Taiwan is imminent or even likely in the next decade or two. The primary reason is that while a nuclear expansion solves the problems of vertical escalation China has, it doesn't address the problems of horizontal escalation. The US has options beyond direct military attacks against China - for instance, it can blockade Chinese shipping or disconnect China from the dollar trading system. These problems require different (and much slower) solutions that I'll touch on here. China can neutralize the threat of blockades by expanding the PLAN (most crucially, the nuclear attack submarine fleet) and basing it in friendly countries along its sea lanes. I have in mind specifically Cambodia and Pakistan, and perhaps others like Myanmar, Iran, and Syria. The problem of trade sanctions can be resolved by developing China's interbank payment system CIPS and its central bank digital currency. More importantly, strategies like dual circulation would reduce and eventually eliminate China's vulnerability to foreign technology, and carbon neutrality would obviate the need for hydrocarbon imports.

Overall, a very significant development that augurs greater things to come.
 

Suetham

Senior Member
Registered Member
Having said this, I don't believe that a war with Taiwan is imminent or even likely in the next decade or two. The primary reason is that while a nuclear expansion solves the problems of vertical escalation China has, it doesn't address the problems of horizontal escalation. The US has options beyond direct military attacks against China - for instance, it can blockade Chinese shipping or disconnect China from the dollar trading system. These problems require different (and much slower) solutions that I'll touch on here. China can neutralize the threat of blockades by expanding the PLAN (most crucially, the nuclear attack submarine fleet) and basing it in friendly countries along its sea lanes. I have in mind specifically Cambodia and Pakistan, and perhaps others like Myanmar, Iran, and Syria. The problem of trade sanctions can be resolved by developing China's interbank payment system CIPS and its central bank digital currency. More importantly, strategies like dual circulation would reduce and eventually eliminate China's vulnerability to foreign technology, and carbon neutrality would obviate the need for hydrocarbon imports.

Overall, a very significant development that augurs greater things to come.

Let me be frank with you. His approach to increasing Chinese nuclear power is correct in my view, but his conclusions about China's "horizontal escalation problems" is another story.

1st option: naval blockade.

So far, only one admiral considers a naval blockade a realistic option to contain the Chinese, this in a public way. We do not know until now whether there is widespread adherence by US admirals and officials to this execution plan to limit Chinese growth and influence. For this to happen, the entire USN (US Navy) needs to be engaged to carry out the naval blockade, an option like that would be a declaration of war against China, not even against the Soviets in Cuba, the Americans called quarantine a naval blockade. Knowing this, a naval blockade is a prerequisite for all-out war.

Second part, even if the US considers this option, the USN does not have enough ships to operate in the Western Pacific to carry out the naval blockade. This is a fact supported by dozens of stories on the subject and even official USN reports confirm this. In order to carry out the blockade, they would necessarily need to rely on their allies such as Japan, South Korea, the Philippines... among others. The chance of this happening is very remote, not to say impossible.

The third part of the comment is that even if they managed to block, there are numerous ways to get around it. There is no efficient way to carry out the naval blockade, some ships from other nations will be blocked, even if they have no relationship with the Chinese, this can lead to many frictions on a global level. One way to make this happen is for the Chinese to change the flag and registration of commercial ships, this can be done in a week, imagine the mess this will make for those who joined the naval blockade, simply in this situation, all ships of all flags would have to be blocked, world trade would stop, world prices would soar, looting would happen all over the world, even in the countries that carried out the blockade, imagine the people's dissatisfaction with this situation.

I, considering all these aspects, the chance of an effective naval blockade against the Chinese is very remote, not to say that it would be completely nil. Therefore, the US military is very reluctant to assert that the naval blockade option is a military "option".

2nd option: Compulsorily withdraw China from the dollar trading system.

I do not think it's a good idea. Frankly, I think it would be even worse for the Americans than for world trade itself. I explain.

China is the largest maritime nation in the world, the largest trading nation in the world, the largest exporting nation in the world, the second largest importer in the world, on the way to becoming the largest importer in the world as well. This means that China trades with the whole world, and most countries in the world are countries that have China as their main trading partner, Brazil, the country I live in, is no different.

Do you know how world trade is done? I explain in a simple way not to go into too much detail why this topic is of another subject. I'm going to put China and Brazil, the country I live in, so I can explain it in an easier way.

When a Brazilian exporter exports its product to China, that Brazilian company does not receive yuan or in Brazilian national currency, but in dollars, the same thing happens with a Brazilian importer. When a Brazilian decides to export or import, he necessarily needs to resort to an American bank, because the dollar is the international exchange currency, therefore, the Brazilian Central Bank needs to exchange the "ownership" of an American bank account in dollars with the amount spent in the negotiation for the Brazilian importer, in this case the Brazilian importer would have to send the Brazilian national currency to the Brazilian Central Bank to receive in dollars in an American bank in the US, then the Brazilian importer decides to deposit the money in the Chinese exporter's account (if the Brazilian importer wants to keep ownership of the account for future negotiations) or again, change the "ownership" of this account to the Chinese exporter, if the Chinese exporter wants to keep the US bank account with the dollars for future negotiations, he keeps , otherwise it exchanges the "entitlement" of this account with the dollars deposited with the Chinese Central Bank in exchange for yuan in a bank. the Chinese in China, because there is no current use of dollars in China. That's how world trade is done.

Imagine a context in which China is forced to stop using due to an international blockade unable to use the dollar in trade, it would be a complete disaster. China can use different forms of negotiation with the Russians for example, but with most of the world it is still done in dollars, and that would be harmful to world trade, even more so to the US. As China is the biggest trading partner of most countries that use dollars for international exchange, if that were impossible, the demand for dollars would collapse. As the largest exporter in the world and the second largest importer in the world, on the verge of becoming the largest importer as well, the fall would be devastating for the dollar and would affect the dollar standard that maintains the global financial system, it would do away with the US. If world trade were to come to a standstill because of this, the US would suffer an even worse fate, because the demand for dollars would collapse, consequently the value of the dollar would plummet, the public debt would have to be defaulted, inflation would soar, I believe that even there would be hyperinflation in some sectors.

This measure taken as an option by the Americans would be even worse for the Americans than for the rest of the world, because the sudden change in world trade would affect countries, but there are countless ways to get around this, and the world would be forced to finding a way out to normalize international exchange, the US would simply be taken out of this equation, relegating itself to a secondary country, because it would no longer play the game in world trade. Therefore, this option has even less to be implemented than naval blockade.

It is for these reasons that China is changing international exchange in a safe and focused way in some countries, without harming world trade, and even itself, because even with this sudden drop in the dollar, China simply would not have more US$1 trillion in dollar reserves it holds. China is doing the right thing and long enough to allow a gradual change without getting on the nerves of any country, while increasing its self-sufficiency, such as electric vehicles for transportation, decreasing its dependence on oil and increasing investment in reactors nuclear power, decreasing its dependence on coal and gas.

Please forgive me for deviating the focus of matter, but a lot is still said to be simply easy to accomplish, but the reality is that it is not.
 
Last edited:

clockwork

Junior Member
Registered Member
warheads are made with plutonium which needs to be breed in reactors from U-238
I seem to recall China's very first atom bomb was uranium implosion. Can the fissile material in the primary as well as the spark plug in the secondary not be substituted with U-235 today? Are there significant disadvantages?
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
Does that matter? It's not like those people serve in the U.S. military.
True.

Also from what little I've been able to gather, it really seems like morale is low in the US military especially the Navy (long deployments, depression and suicides etc.). And the average sailor seems quite scared of any conflict with China (and the higherups also being incredibly alarmed and basically scary of chinese missiles such as the DF-21)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top