Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

dxq4412

dxq4412

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Have we seen this picture before?
It's from
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. Right now, Im not sure where the article in the picture comes from, but it should be from an internal aviation journal or report. It mentions that CAC proposed the J-36 design concept as early as 2009. Then, some research institute, possibly Xi'an Aircraft Corporation, took this design between 2009 and 2013, scaled it up and made changes to turn it into a six-engine tailless stealth bomber. They did wind tunnel tests and simulations with it.
The report suggests that XAC confirmed that the design data from Chengdu's 2009 proposal is genuine and reliable. The aircraft features three improved WS-15 engines on each side, delivering nearly 100 tons of thrust. With an empty weight of 90 tons, it can carry 140 tons of fuel and 25 tons of armaments. It is capable of supercruising at 1.8 Mach for a range of approximately 11,000 to 9,400 kilometers. When flying at subsonic speeds, its range increases to about 13,500 to 11,800 kilometers.

v2-9b9e77f9a6171bb13a4dab802c4e8595_r.jpg
The note at the bottom of the image translates to: This is a next-generation fighter concept from our brother institute's pre-research. The data comes from a concept proposed at the 2009 Beijing seminar on the development of new fighter technologies. Even though it's a 3-year-old design, we've spent the past 2 years adapting it for a bomber configuration and have tested it in wind tunnels and simulations. The data is genuine and reliable.
 
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dxq4412

dxq4412

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I'm thinking that maybe the papers we've seen before by people like Wang Haifeng and Yang Wei, or the podcast content by Shi Lao Yang Ji, don't actually show how the 'PLAA' thinks about next-generation air combat ideas now. Instead, they show how the 'PLAA' thought about these ideas a long time ago. It seems they've only decided to tell everyone what they were thinking fifteen years ago.
 
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ougoah

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Well yes the dates sort of line up.

It takes about 20 years give or take 5 (for US and China) to go from napkin sketch to first delivery into airforce.

Typically for Chinese modern fighters it has taken between 6 and 7 years to go from public "first flight" (I put this in quotations because public first flight nearly always come after secret first flight in flight testing ranges in the desert) to active service. About 8 years for J-10 hinted first flight and about 6 years for J-20.

This gives around 13 to 14 years for pre prototype flight development cycle. If we take J-36 as example for this exercise, 2024 public first flight of advanced prototype level (as opposed to early tech demonstrator level) means roughly a 2030 introduction into service and a circa 2010 concept design begin.

This would line up with the 2009 year mentioned in the post.

This isn't particularly interesting for J-36 since we know development of this fighter would have started when the J-20 prototype was nearing completion. These dates all line up. What's interesting is taking this XAC related hint to applying it to the hint about H-20 being supersonic. Or maybe they are talking about JH-xx.
 
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AndrewJ

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00CuriousObserver said:
TWZ's long essay is finally here

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Just posting a link for now as I'm sure there's plenty to talk about
Click to expand...

There's a wide-spread saying in Chinese military fanboy community: Let American raise PPT concepts, and Chinese bring concepts to the reality.

A typical example is the research process of AAM PL-15 in 2010s. When AAM AIM-120D was not yet developed, the USAF publicly claimed that it'll use a dual-pulse rocket motor, with a range of over 200 km. This shocked Chinese researchers. They worked hard, finally developed PL-15 with a dual-pulse rocket motor, and a range of over 200 km.
However, the actual performance of the AIM-120D missile ultimately equipped by USAF is far from the previously disclosed data. The missile, with a range of about only 160 km, didn't adopt dual-pulse rocket motors. Then USAF urged to develop the "real dual-pulse" AIM-260, but 10 years later, the missile is still under development. This proved U.S.'s such early concepts is more of propaganda, and became a joke in the fanboy community.

Similar patterns can be found in recent projects, such as USAF laser weapon (canceled), US Army FARA (canceled), US Navy Zumwalt (very limited deployment)... Lots of concepts and early tests, huge amounts of money input, lots of reality check, none of deployment, only cancels and delays.
Meanwhile, Chinese take things seriously, and bring the initial PPT concepts to the reality. Then PR chaos incoming.

Now we are seeing the same pattern in NGAD again.
 
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bsdnf

Junior Member
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dxq4412 said:
Have we seen this picture before?
It's from
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Right now, Im not sure where the article in the picture comes from, but it should be from an internal aviation journal or report. It mentions that CAC proposed the J-36 design concept as early as 2009. Then, some research institute, possibly Xi'an Aircraft Corporation, took this design between 2009 and 2013, scaled it up and made changes to turn it into a six-engine tailless stealth bomber. They did wind tunnel tests and simulations with it.
The report suggests that XAC confirmed that the design data from Chengdu's 2009 proposal is genuine and reliable. The aircraft features three improved WS-15 engines on each side, delivering nearly 100 tons of thrust. With an empty weight of 90 tons, it can carry 140 tons of fuel and 25 tons of armaments. It is capable of supercruising at 1.8 Mach for a range of approximately 11,000 to 9,400 kilometers. When flying at subsonic speeds, its range increases to about 13,500 to 11,800 kilometers.

View attachment 143598
The note at the bottom of the image translates to: This is a next-generation fighter concept from our brother institute's pre-research. The data comes from a concept proposed at the 2009 Beijing seminar on the development of new fighter technologies. Even though it's a 3-year-old design, we've spent the past 2 years adapting it for a bomber configuration and have tested it in wind tunnels and simulations. The data is genuine and reliable.
Click to expand...
This is not surprising, the development principle of equipping one generation, researching one generation, and conducting pre-research on one generation was established as early as the 1980s. SAC and CAC started the technical pre-research of the fifth-generation aircraft in the early 1990s, when even the J-10 was still a few years away from its first flight. So when we saw the first flight of the J-36, it meant that the pre-research of the next-generation fighter had been going on for several years.
 
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mack8

Junior Member
dxq4412 said:
Have we seen this picture before?
It's from
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Right now, Im not sure where the article in the picture comes from, but it should be from an internal aviation journal or report. It mentions that CAC proposed the J-36 design concept as early as 2009. Then, some research institute, possibly Xi'an Aircraft Corporation, took this design between 2009 and 2013, scaled it up and made changes to turn it into a six-engine tailless stealth bomber. They did wind tunnel tests and simulations with it.
The report suggests that XAC confirmed that the design data from Chengdu's 2009 proposal is genuine and reliable. The aircraft features three improved WS-15 engines on each side, delivering nearly 100 tons of thrust. With an empty weight of 90 tons, it can carry 140 tons of fuel and 25 tons of armaments. It is capable of supercruising at 1.8 Mach for a range of approximately 11,000 to 9,400 kilometers. When flying at subsonic speeds, its range increases to about 13,500 to 11,800 kilometers.

View attachment 143598
The note at the bottom of the image translates to: This is a next-generation fighter concept from our brother institute's pre-research. The data comes from a concept proposed at the 2009 Beijing seminar on the development of new fighter technologies. Even though it's a 3-year-old design, we've spent the past 2 years adapting it for a bomber configuration and have tested it in wind tunnels and simulations. The data is genuine and reliable.
Click to expand...
YES! Made my day, that's the picture i saw few weeks ago then couldn't find, in relation to a hypothetical supersonic H-20, which i imagined more or less as a big J-36. Wicked looking design i might say.
 
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henrik

Senior Member
Registered Member
kurutoga said:
But why? US is still the largest military plane producer in the world. They have the scale. Also, these private MIC firms are supposed to compete to lower the price. Even if they ask for very high profit margin, the price for B21 should be 100-200 mil, (say 2x F-35) not 600-700 mil. Labor and R&D cost can't explain it.

Also there was some video explaining that the Chinese tooling are quite expensive for military projects, because they aren't allowed to use European CNCs. The US MIC would not have any issues like that.

"System Engineering" was supposed to be America's biggest strength. Managing large complex projects within budget on time was what made America great in the past.

I know there are jokes about $3000 hammer but those are jokes, and the Chinese MIC may also have high price like that for certain particular items. Bottom line is I want to see a full scale NGAD. Hope they can afford it.
Click to expand...

They can just save money on some other expenses, like building fewer CVs. They can even just print more $US and pay with bitcoin after jacking up bitcoin prices.
 
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