Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

[tygyg1111]

That's J-3.6

Jai 3.6

 

[Nautilus]

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Guys,do we think kendall is coping?

It is interesting that he described NGAD as essentially an F-22 replacement, whereas the J-36 "air cruiser" concept seems broader in scope. Of course, U.S. intelligence in all likelihood knew more about the new platforms and their purposes than we do even before they flew so I'm not surprised if those factors already played into their decision to halt the NGAD project last year. Rather than coping it seems prudent to re-evaluate their approach in light of rapid Chinese advances.

 

[siegecrossbow]

It is interesting that he described NGAD as essentially an F-22 replacement, whereas the J-36 "air cruiser" concept seems broader in scope. Of course, U.S. intelligence in all likelihood knew more about the new platforms and their purposes than we do even before they flew so I'm not surprised if those factors already played into their decision to halt the NGAD project last year. Rather than coping it seems prudent to re-evaluate their approach in light of rapid Chinese advances.

I think he said he didn’t just want another F-22 replacement, hence the reevaluation.

 

[Ringsword]

So it's like this. Chinese people can say this thing isn't gonna win any beauty contests. That's what I thought when I first saw it. But we can say it cus it's ours. But it's offensive when other people say it. Just like how one can joke with others about how his own wife has been putting on a few pounds and how he could whisk her up the stairs effortlessly when they first met but can barely piggy-back her on flat ground anymore... but if another man starts making fat jokes at this man's wife, it is likely to become a very hostile exchange.

Beauty is as beauty does-and actually the J36 reminds me not of a gingko leaf(although I appreciate/understand why so)-I am an archer /bowhunter- of a deadly broadhead arrow tip-sharp,beautiful and deadly indeed.

 

[Maikeru]

This is the key passage:

Asked what recommendation his blue-ribbon panel of stealth experts—including analysts, former Chiefs of Staff, and senior generals—came up with regarding NGAD, Kendall said they reached “a consensus that there are a number of other things that we need to fund” but if resources are available, “then it would still be beneficial to have an NGAD-like aircraft.”

NGAD now in the "nice to have" category. Which would imply that, unless there's a major funding boost, NGAD is either toast or will be rolled into F/A-XX

 

[Totoro]

If that panel of experts is that group of almost 80 year olds that was once mentioned with regards to NGAD then the whole project was toast even long before.

 

[tphuang]

If they are truly going to go with B-21 as the A2A missile truck combined with a much smaller NGAD fighter, the US truly is behind in the latest air dominance field. B-21 cannot substitute something like the J-36. It doesn't fly nearly quick enough to be a "fighter". Missile trucks are fine and all and honestly a great thing to have. We've been talking about A2A missile trucks slinging LRAAMs or ULRAAMs for years now and hoping for PLAAF to eventually field a JH-xy missile truck with Tu-22M speed, B-21 payload capacity and J-20 electronic war... this is what we got with J-36 only with all aspect stealth. The main issue for a subsonic missile truck is speed. B-21 just doesn't have even half the speed a J-36 will impart on LR/ULRAAMs.

Even assuming operating altitude is similar, J-36 missiles will have more than twice the initial kinetic energy before missile motors kick in.

Not to mention the J-36 almost definitely will turn better than a pure flying wing.

With 6th gen, what's a bomber and what's a fighter becomes increasingly hard to tell. So even though I don't consider B-21 to be a fighter (because that's not its main role), it can be used in that role, probably be effective, just purely due to its stealth and EW potential.

so, it's very important that J-36 has stronger EW and power generation potential than B-21. And J-36 will be expected to "hunt" B-21s.

Many people said J36 is not a fighter, I think they are right. It is a combat dominance aircraft, it does not need to fight like a fighter to kill you.

Calling it fighter probably undersells its ability by quite a bit.

B21 is a scale down version of B2 at a cheaper price which they desperately needed.. A bigger plane like J36 could definitely house a monster EW system. In future warfare, EW is very important besides climbing up to higher altitude.

B21 focuses alot on angle and stealth but it doesn't have space to house a large EW system and not able to generate massive power due to 2 engine..

I think B-21 probably does have more space than J-36 (it has massive wings), but it has much less engine power that can be used in EW. America really went cheap with B-21.

This is a lesson in not underestimating your adversaries.

Now, you have 5th gen that can't compete against Chinese ones in power generation, because yours has 1 engine and the other side has 2. You spent too much money on nuclear renewal program, so you don't have enough funds for a large monstrosity like J-36 for NGAD program. And your B-21 is too small to compete even with J-36 in power generation let alone H-20.

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Guys,do we think kendall is coping?

what else do you expect him to say?

 

[tphuang]

The real implication of J-36 and J-50 isn't as much the systems themselves as the R&D talent base who built them.

One does not need to underestimate US R&D capability one bit, one just need ignore evidence to the contary and take all their claimed capabilities at face value, and then compare them to China's demonstrated R&D and industrial capabilities.

Even if we assume US is able to field everything they claimed, NGAD, NGAS, CCA, B-21, that all of them possess capabilities they claimed, and even if we give them the capability to produce them in quantity, by the time they do that, China will be half way to 7th gen, J-36A/B will be out, and China will have greater number of CCA. That is one just need to not assume US posses a secret, greater than claimed capabilities

J-36 and J-50 was designed with the expectation that US will be able to achieve their claimed 6th gen capabilities, it's up to the US to back it up.

To be fair, that's more of implication of J-10 and then J-20 and J-36 programs. The engineering talent in China is immense.

By the way, back off a little bit on 7th gen talk. We don't know if that will even be needed, since it will be all drone from that point on.

J-36 is just hyper BVR focused. To a degree where it surely is making sacrifices in agility. Let's assume its ITR, STR and roll rates are worse than 4th and 5th gen fighters but better than B-21 and existing CCAs around the world. It can still climb fast and obviously has a high top speed. Therefore getting to right positions is still within its "agility" kinematic performance.

One other thing to consider is that it also probably doesn't need as much agility because it's so hard to detect, that it can get into right position without being countered. I mean you can trot is out by itself, but ideally it's going there with CCAs, which then mask it's position also.

I do wonder if subsonic maneuverability will even matter for J-36 if it can easily go supersonic without afterburners.

It is interesting that he described NGAD as essentially an F-22 replacement, whereas the J-36 "air cruiser" concept seems broader in scope. Of course, U.S. intelligence in all likelihood knew more about the new platforms and their purposes than we do even before they flew so I'm not surprised if those factors already played into their decision to halt the NGAD project last year. Rather than coping it seems prudent to re-evaluate their approach in light of rapid Chinese advances.

I think even the larger NGAD proposal is probably closer to the SAC project than J-36. it remains to be seen if DoD will go for a more J-36 like proposal. I just don't see how you can be competitive with J-36 unless it's really large.

I think at this point, we have to assume NGAD will be picked up by Trump admin. So, it will be interesting to see what NGAD will look like. I don't expect it to fly for a while, because DoD requirement has to account for J-36 at this point.

 

[zyklon]

With 6th gen, what's a bomber and what's a fighter becomes increasingly hard to tell. So even though I don't consider B-21 to be a fighter (because that's not its main role), it can be used in that role, probably be effective, just purely due to its stealth and EW potential.

By that logic, do you feel that the emergence of the J-36 will result in the termination of the H-20 program or significant limitations on the number of H-20 bombers that will ultimately enter service?

Considering the J-36's anticipated range and payload capacity, as well as the size and sophistication of the PLARF's missile programs, in particular new systems like the DF-27, the H-20 program seems increasingly unnecessary, or at least less of a priority moving forward.

 

[tphuang]

By that logic, do you feel that the emergence of the J-36 will result in the termination of the H-20 program or significant limitations on the number of H-20 bombers that will ultimately enter service?

Considering the J-36's anticipated range and payload capacity, as well as the size and sophistication of the PLARF's missile programs, in particular new systems like the DF-27, the H-20 program seems increasingly unnecessary, or at least less of a priority moving forward.

No, because H-20 does have even higher power generation potential and range. It can also carry more ammunitions.

Let's put it this way, with single refuel, H-20 can get close enough to Hawaii to attack Pacific fleet base and hit naval related infrastructure. You can hit most targets in Australia without refueling.

I would agree that J-36's presence makes H-20 a little less important.

Having long range is really a game changer