Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

bebops

Junior Member
Registered Member
If they are truly going to go with B-21 as the A2A missile truck combined with a much smaller NGAD fighter, the US truly is behind in the latest air dominance field. B-21 cannot substitute something like the J-36. It doesn't fly nearly quick enough to be a "fighter". Missile trucks are fine anBd all and honestly a great thing to have. We've been talking about A2A missile trucks slinging LRAAMs or ULRAAMs for years now and hoping for PLAAF to eventually field a JH-xy missile truck with Tu-22M speed, B-21 payload capacity and J-20 electronic war... this is what we got with J-36 only with all aspect stealth. The main issue for a subsonic missile truck is speed. B-21 just doesn't have even half the speed a J-36 will impart on LR/ULRAAMs.

Even assuming operating altitude is similar, J-36 missiles will have more than twice the initial kinetic energy before missile motors kick in.

Not to mention the J-36 almost definitely will turn better than a pure flying wing.


B21 is a scale down version of B2 at a cheaper price which they desperately needed.. A bigger plane like J36 could definitely house a monster EW system. In future warfare, EW is very important besides climbing up to higher altitude.

B21 focuses alot on angle and stealth but it doesn't have space to house a large EW system and not able to generate massive power due to 2 engine..
 

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
U2 had no ability to detect incoming missiles and its cruise speed was only Mach 0.5
In term of energy, hitting something at very high altitude means interception happen when missile kinetic energy is at minimum, for U2 that wasn't a problem since the target made no attempt to evade nor has much ability to evade, but with 6th gen sensors J-36 can detect incoming missiles at long range, so with supercruise and altitude it will have massive energy advantage relative to the missile, which is to say not only does altitude suppress incoming missile's envelope, when combined with 6th gen sensors and high speed altitude also makes it much easier, perhaps only requriing a small heading change to escape the missile's already reduced envelope.
Im going to go on bit of speculative tangent here, but bear in mind its based on the research we've seen and current capabilities of CN aviation industry.

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+ it can have CCAs with the vertical anti-AAM launch systems that would be protecting the entire J-36 and CCA squadrons in the air , this is if the AAM can be fired from NEZ aaaand not getting jammed on top.

The main threat could be American next gen CCAs that come close enough without getting detected and pop off their missile salvo. First, upon launch, they could be immediately detected and neutralized, and then the missiles need to counter EW, evasive manoeuvres and counter-AAM missiles.

Probability of J-36 getting shot down would be low tbh based on what is publicly currently known of American research and only if pilot displays InAF/Abhinandan level of competency.

However, discounting American/opponent ingenuity leads to hubris, just like all of them did with all the temu and wish jokes for the past decade and now they suffer from a mixture of cope and seethe. I personally think US has the RnD base to provide profound solutions, however the smaller industrial base would lead to much higher costs pound to pound. Its surely an interesting time like weve not had in entire history of aviation.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Why so butthurt? Are you just blind or are you one of those ultra Kool aid drinkers who is just overly sensitive and defensive to everything even semi remotely critical of China.
Unlike you I try to be objective. This plane could take out a dozen F22s at the same time and I'll give it credit but it's still ugly from the side profile.
So it's like this. Chinese people can say this thing isn't gonna win any beauty contests. That's what I thought when I first saw it. But we can say it cus it's ours. But it's offensive when other people say it. Just like how one can joke with others about how his own wife has been putting on a few pounds and how he could whisk her up the stairs effortlessly when they first met but can barely piggy-back her on flat ground anymore... but if another man starts making fat jokes at this man's wife, it is likely to become a very hostile exchange.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
So it's like this. Chinese people can say this thing isn't gonna win any beauty contests. That's what I thought when I first saw it. But we can say it cus it's ours. But it's offensive when other people say it. Just like how one can joke with others about how his own wife has been putting on a few pounds and how he could whisk her up the stairs effortlessly when they first met but can barely piggy-back her on flat ground anymore... but if another man starts making fat jokes at this man's wife, it is likely to become a very hostile exchange.
I see where you are coming from however this is an intimate object and a military aircraft. It's one thing if I say pandas are fugly in which case your point is more valid. I happened to think pandas are cute and I've also commented in the past where I thought 055s, J10Cs etc. are good looking machines.
My particular observation had zero to do with where it was made however I believe that the person I responded to was strictly offended because of where it was made and took offense personally.
 

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
Im going to go on bit of speculative tangent here, but bear in mind its based on the research we've seen and current capabilities of CN aviation industry.

--
+ it can have CCAs with the vertical anti-AAM launch systems that would be protecting the entire J-36 and CCA squadrons in the air , this is if the AAM can be fired from NEZ aaaand not getting jammed on top.

The main threat could be American next gen CCAs that come close enough without getting detected and pop off their missile salvo. First, upon launch, they could be immediately detected and neutralized, and then the missiles need to counter EW, evasive manoeuvres and counter-AAM missiles.

Probability of J-36 getting shot down would be low tbh based on what is publicly currently known of American research and only if pilot displays InAF/Abhinandan level of competency.

However, discounting American/opponent ingenuity leads to hubris, just like all of them did with all the temu and wish jokes for the past decade and now they suffer from a mixture of cope and seethe. I personally think US has the RnD base to provide profound solutions, however the smaller industrial base would lead to much higher costs pound to pound. Its surely an interesting time like weve not had in entire history of aviation.
The real implication of J-36 and J-50 isn't as much the systems themselves as the R&D talent base who built them.

One does not need to underestimate US R&D capability one bit, one just need ignore evidence to the contary and take all their claimed capabilities at face value, and then compare them to China's demonstrated R&D and industrial capabilities.

Even if we assume US is able to field everything they claimed, NGAD, NGAS, CCA, B-21, that all of them possess capabilities they claimed, and even if we give them the capability to produce them in quantity, by the time they do that, China will be half way to 7th gen, J-36A/B will be out, and China will have greater number of CCA. That is one just need to not assume US posses a secret, greater than claimed capabilities

J-36 and J-50 was designed with the expectation that US will be able to achieve their claimed 6th gen capabilities, it's up to the US to back it up.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
The essence of dog fighting is to manuever into firing position before the enemy do the same. J36 is fighting on a different level from current ones.

If you can't detect a J36 from a distance then you can't manuever into firing position, and your sensors may be fried by the powerful ECM from J36 making you blind. So J36 has the advantage of shooting you down without hard manuevering, and from a safe distance from you.

Many people said J36 is not a fighter, I think they are right. It is a combat dominance aircraft, it does not need to fight like a fighter to kill you.

You are mostly right with one correction, it's not the essence of just dogfighting to get into best firing position. This remains true for BVR as well.

J-36 is just hyper BVR focused. To a degree where it surely is making sacrifices in agility. Let's assume its ITR, STR and roll rates are worse than 4th and 5th gen fighters but better than B-21 and existing CCAs around the world. It can still climb fast and obviously has a high top speed. Therefore getting to right positions is still within its "agility" kinematic performance.

To compensate for it's comparative lacking of agility compared to 4th and 5th gen manned fighters, the J-36 likely has much more enhanced all aspect stealth, sensor, networking, EW, weapons payload, speed, and superior range capabilities. All of these advantages over typical 5th gen for less agility (but superior speed and possibly also altitude). Meanwhile SAC's 6th gen looks like it focuses on the turning part.

To add to this, China will also have over 1000 5th gen fighters by the time these enter service at the current production rate of J-20 of >120/year and already having around 300 units of just J-20. J-35 and J-35A entering service now too with production rates that will eventually match if not exceed (simpler and smaller aircraft) current J-20's rate. Both of these fighters turn more or less with the best 4th and 5th gen dogfighters... rest is training, networks and weapons dependent.

We haven't even talked about CCAs which of course further ensure that actual dogfighting will become rare to non-existent in most air war engagements.

J-36 absolutely is the king of beasts as an aircraft "fighter" that obviously emphasises BVR. As part of the PLAAF network of shooter platforms, this is the high level BVR piece, the rooks or even queen for chess reference. There are plenty of pieces in PLAAF that are going to cover anything that approaches WVR. This J-36 stays far away from that sort of fight. Before it was "let your missiles do the turning"... the F-35 was ahead of the curve in stating that but everyone knew and clearly many acted on this too. Now it's let your long range missiles do the killing and your 4th and 5th gen fighters can do plenty of turning if your CCAs aren't already covering most of those needs.

Stealthier with no vertical or horizontal stabilisers. Would be as stealthy as a flying wing except can supercruise and I bet it turns better than a B-2/B-21.

More weapons.

Longer ranged weapons with larger and deeper IWBs.

Higher operating altitude based on CAC.

Faster top speed and supercruise - assumed based on sweep angles and essentially CAC own revelations on performance emphasis.

Third high thrust engine for powering EW suite and sensors on top of tapping into more thrust for speed.

Longer loiter time and range because its volumous design takes more fuel (although third engine means consumption up by 50% too!). This means it needs to receive VCE which is also something CAC hinted at. Prototypes may be flying WS-10C rather than VCE or even WS-15 despite WS-15 now on J-20 birds. Choice for this could simply be because the prototype was designed and developed many years ago, before WS-15 readiness and initial production.

While they were designing this prototype back in maybe say 2017, they wouldn't have final WS-15 weight, dimensions, thrust specs etc all detailed with any certainty. WS-10C is also a variant of an engine that has been used by PLAAF for over 10 years at this point, therefore it is much more known.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Obviously I haven't even included the opportunity for these two new platforms designed based on philosophies/doctrines that have been shaped by the period after year 2000s where J-20 and F-35 were designed as mainstay 5th gen fighters of each respective airforce. Benefitting from the knowns and what China was able to figure out in terms of overcoming new developments and the latest in service.

Simultaneously taking advantage of technologies developed AFTER the freezing of design of J-20 and J-35 which weren't able to make full use of and may not be able to be upgraded with in later batches.

These include and obviously not limited to new radar technologies, electro-optics, thermal and acoustic passive sensors. Who knows what else.

For SAC's what's strongly hinted is variable geometry airframe with moving "skin" and surfaces not using traditional hydraulics or whatever tech actuators are using.

If J-20 early blocks are products of 2010s level tech at best, F-35s are 2000s to 2010 tech and early to mid block F-22s are products of 1990s to 2000s tech, CAC's 6th gen when it reaches service is based on 2020s era tech and Chinese tech in all these known domains are likely to have matched the US if not exceeded to be honest - energy storage, motors, radar, software, materials, aerodynamics, comms. Weakness is engine as most likely 2020s level Chinese turbofan ... even military low bypass ones are years if not a decade behind the US (WS-15 about 10 years after F135). civil aviation high bypass turbofans China is even further behind the US at least when it comes to bringing to field an equal performer. I understand China has now mastered ceramic and hollow blades too which is less than a 10 year gap but production and running is in the proof.
 

BillRamengod

New Member
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The appearance of new Chinese combat aircraft in recent weeks—potentially
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and
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, a smaller, fighter-size aircraft, and
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, among others—didn’t influence current Air Force leadership’s recent decisions on the Next-Generation Air Dominance program or the service’s broader strategic outlook, Secretary Frank Kendall said.
Guys,do we think kendall is coping?
 
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