Cause and effect of Chinese GDP & ecnomic growth Worldwide.

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

Most people in China view real estate as money making object, not as a place to live. It's creating a huge bubble.

Local government to satisfied GDP requirement, keep on building empty office buildings.

Build what's needed, not base on future projections.

All this talk of bubble is nothing but sour grape. Nothing new here The western press has been predicting impending collapse for 30 years and nothing has materialized sofar.

Instead Chinese economy grow from strength to strength

Compare to 1994 Chinese economy is much healthier now NPL is getting smaller and smaller . Back then inflation reach to 14% , million lay off from state company, NPL is 20% and yet The goverment managed to bring it to soft landing

They certainly know to run economy and who are you to give them advice?
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

Most people in China view real estate as money making object, not as a place to live. It's creating a huge bubble.

Local government to satisfied GDP requirement, keep on building empty office buildings.

Build what's needed, not base on future projections.

My friend, from what you have written here... obviously you have no idea what is happening in the real world. Stop hiding in your study room and come out, then look around you for once.

Take this simple scenario... if you are a manufacturing company who wanted to set up a manufacturing factory in a place. What will you look to? what is the most important factor to consider?

1) Supporting infrastructure - readied roads, water supplies, buildings that you could lodge your workers in, electricity, etc
2) Security and stability - stable government, stable and secured environment
3) Supporting industries - it is needed for your surrounding - preferably within 3 hours driving distance, to have supporting industries for your factory or products.
4) Government incentive - in the form of tax incentive, rebates, even double tax treaties with your individual country (if you are a foreign investor).

Of course there are other consideration like skilled workers availability, etc. But I am not here to give you a free lecture, so the abovementioned will do for now.

So lets come to point one - if china is only going to build what you need for now and not the future projections, how would you actually expect or even hope investor from moving inwards into China and enable a uniform growth? You can bet your ass, that people will continue to try to migrate to the already overcrowded coastal cities... and what will happen?

1) Social problem - many will be jobless... and left stranded there.
2) Economic overheating - especially in the real estate area.
3) Unbalanced developement whereby coastal areas were mighty rich and the rest of the country is in slump.
4) Unbalance distribution of resources - whereby manufacturing areas needed more resources and so snatched up a larger chunk... when I say resources, I don't just means skilled workers here... but water (factory use and for human consumption, electricity, etc).
5) Unbalance tax system and income for the country (the coastal area will have to support more and so increases in the tax... which could sometime be unbearable)
6) etc, etc.

So you tell me, is it important to build up the infrastructure... also if the infrastructure are thoroughly built up and more investment and factories are set up in the inner china, people will start migrating back to their respective homeland... so a more distributed population, and without that much people in those overheating cities in the coastal areas, do you still think it would be profitable for real estate agents to keep building buildings that will not sell?

All these are kind of a common sense stuff, you do not need a professor or an airforce officer to tell you that. All you need to do is to look around the current trend and thats it.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

What worries me the most is how can normal chinese individuals (the low to middle class) afford those newly build houses? My family work in the real estate industry in south west China. He told me how normal middle income Chinese can NEVER, he said NEVER afford the houses they and other real estate company are now building. Cheap apartments can range up to quarter of a million RMBs easily now.

Most buyer have to pay a huge down payments up front unlike here the average 10% here in the US. normal college graduate's average income are about 1500-4000 RMBs (if they are lucky enough to find a job). most Chinese couples are not even getting married cause they can't afford a decent apartment. Most of those people have to borrow money from their parents just to continue renting a place to live.

The poors are in the worst positions. local governments in South West Chinese provinces are required by the national goverment to provide numbers of housing that are affortable to the poor, but most of those housing are poorly build and poorly priced by the local government. Cheapest project housing in the ourskirt of city are about 80,000 RMBs. you also have to pay 60% up front. How in the world can the poors afford that? that is about 500%yearly income for some people.

More disturbing is the stories my family told me how local government confiscated land from farmers for the new "Socialist country side reform". pay them a peny amount for their land. Then work with local real estate company to build some new houses to make the place look nice. Get this... Then sale the land back to those farmers for 3 to 6 times of the price they were paid for. Most people sadly have to buy their own land back. Farmers that can't afford it became homless. There also were stories of family kill themselves or kill officials, or real estate companies hire thugs to beat up or kill those farmers that wouldn't move out of their own land.

All those are first hand account of the real estate situations in China now.

You keep saying that there are stories of this and that. Do you have link for those that you claim.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

What worries me the most is how can normal chinese individuals (the low to middle class) afford those newly build houses? My family work in the real estate industry in south west China. He told me how normal middle income Chinese can NEVER, he said NEVER afford the houses they and other real estate company are now building. Cheap apartments can range up to quarter of a million RMBs easily now.

Most buyer have to pay a huge down payments up front unlike here the average 10% here in the US. normal college graduate's average income are about 1500-4000 RMBs (if they are lucky enough to find a job). most Chinese couples are not even getting married cause they can't afford a decent apartment. Most of those people have to borrow money from their parents just to continue renting a place to live.

The poors are in the worst positions. local governments in South West Chinese provinces are required by the national goverment to provide numbers of housing that are affortable to the poor, but most of those housing are poorly build and poorly priced by the local government. Cheapest project housing in the ourskirt of city are about 80,000 RMBs. you also have to pay 60% up front. How in the world can the poors afford that? that is about 500%yearly income for some people.

More disturbing is the stories my family told me how local government confiscated land from farmers for the new "Socialist country side reform". pay them a peny amount for their land. Then work with local real estate company to build some new houses to make the place look nice. Get this... Then sale the land back to those farmers for 3 to 6 times of the price they were paid for. Most people sadly have to buy their own land back. Farmers that can't afford it became homless. There also were stories of family kill themselves or kill officials, or real estate companies hire thugs to beat up or kill those farmers that wouldn't move out of their own land.

All those are first hand account of the real estate situations in China now.

Dude, what are you talking about? Houses for 80,000 RMB? I'll take a dozen please! Apartments for a 250k RMB? That's damn cheap, and you'll probably only find it in small cities.

What do you think is the monthly salary of the average Chinese professional? In small cities, it's easily 3k - 5k. In large cities, it can go up to 12k.

Wait, you're a laborer? Then what the hell makes you think you're able to buy a house? How many laborers are able to afford their own houses in Toronto or New York?
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

Actually I think it is the case for many people in developed country - even in England, US, etc, average fresh graduates are not able to afford their own house and they have to work for say... ten to twenty years before able to buy their own property. So I am not surprise that China is also going through this phase.
 

ZTZ99

Banned Idiot
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

WOW THANKS A LOT, FOR A MOMENT I THOUGHT C.G.T. MEANT, "CHINESE GOT TALENT"


SO WHAT: CGT has been around for a considerable amount of years and continuously revised.

NOTE in the source you cited to explain CGT it points out :

"However, the system has some limitations, as the macro-economic focus of the system has meant that certain simplifications have been necessary, and if applied for micro-economic evaluations the compensated tons system might give misleading results."

BUT THE PROBLEM IS NOT MY LACK OF UNDERSTANDING IN HIGH SCHOOL MATHS

BUT YOUR INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND ENGLISH FULLY

THE ARTICLE ONLY TALKS ABOUT SHIPS ORDERED, NOT SHIPS BUILT YOU CANT CLAIM TO BE THE BIGGEST SHIP BUILDER IF YOU HAVENT BUILT THE SHIPS YET. (What happens if the orders get cancelled)

THE SAME ARTICLE ALSO SAYS KOREA IS THE LEADING SHIPBUILDER in 2010.

THE LAST SENTENCE OF THE SAME PARAGRAPH READS:

"South Korea's shipbuilding industry surpassed Japan in 2000. In the following 10 years, South Korea has been the world's largest ship builder".



Ill put it simpler for you: KOREA WAS THE WORLDS LEADING SHIPBUILDING NATION BETWEEN 2000 and 2010.

IT was you who quoted Chosun Ilbo and note it cites"Clarkson" (which isnt Korean) as its source for information which states

"China's shipbuilding has overtaken South Korea's in terms of order volume already received and new orders. According to statistical results released by Clarkson, the research institute that analyze the global shipbuilding and maritime transport sector, as of early this month, China's shipbuilding orders reached 54.96 million Compensated Gross Ton (CGT), 34.7% of the world market share, while the South Korean shipbuilding industry holds orders of 53.63 million CGT and only 33.8% of the world's market share. China's market share is 0.9 percentage points higher than South Korea's." Meanwhile "Marport" whom you appear to favour, is nothing more than an opinion piece, devoid of any evidence to substantiate the writers views.

If thats not enough to point out your error, then how about the actual headline of the article you are quoting from? "China set to become world's largest shipbuilding country16:52, November 10, 2009"

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But you were also the one who said China may overtake S Korea in the "distant future". This directly implies that you really had no idea at all how close China actually is to S Korea's level of production at this very moment until it was pointed out to you in this very thread. In fact you used outdated numbers from 2008 that no longer reflect the reality of 2009, as Hendrick's article dates to. If you meant it as a quote and did not fully endorse it, you should not have quoted it in the first place, especially since you did not bother to separate out that piece of unreality. Either way, you're wrong, your quote is wrong, and on the balance Hendrick has got it far closer to reality than you do.
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

But you were also the one who said China may overtake S Korea in the "distant future". This directly implies that you really had no idea at all how close China actually is to S Korea's level of production at this very moment until it was pointed out to you in this very thread. In fact you used outdated numbers from 2008 that no longer reflect the reality of 2009, as Hendrick's article dates to. If you meant it as a quote and did not fully endorse it, you should not have quoted it in the first place, especially since you did not bother to separate out that piece of unreality. Either way, you're wrong, your quote is wrong, and on the balance Hendrick has got it far closer to reality than you do.

(OMG another person/ who believes a newspaper article on shipbuilding and pointing out that Korea was the leading shipbuilding nation from 2000 to 2010 actually means China was the biggest shipbuilding nation.


Hendriks source only projects China to overtake Korea based on received orders to date. We dont even know what the lead time is for placing orders until final delivery, it might be 1yr 2yrs or a even more distant time frame/distant future.
So until the tonnage has been built and credited, Korea at present is the bigger shipbuilder , a fact backed up by Hendriks own sources.

Please Don't waste my time by spinning Hendrick's own sources
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

This directly implies that you really had no idea at all how close China actually is to S Korea's level of production at this very moment until it was pointed out to you in this very thread. In fact you used outdated numbers from 2008 that no longer reflect the reality of 2009,

You have no idea on what I have read on the state of Chinese shipbuilding
IF YOU READ MY VERY FIRST POST ON THE MATTER (Post7)< I POINTED OUT I WAS UNABLE TO LOCATE THE SITE I HAD SEEN AT A EARLER TIME

ihave since found it. and many more. It discusses the problems faced by Chinese Shipbuilders, with the cancellation of orders, readjustment of delivery times and so on (some of these points I Had already made in an earlier post.,bassed on that I made the comment "distant future" after all times a relative thing. An expanded view of this and other webites leaves the impression that China will still be in 2nd spot during 2009.

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as Hendrick's article dates to. If you meant it as a quote and did not fully endorse it, you should not have quoted it in the first place, especially since you did not bother to separate out that piece of unreality. .


Hendrik also makes a similar error.

Post 22 "BTW if you don't notice Chosun Ilbo is Korean newspaper"

The way he said it implies, he does not believe the figures from his own source, so why should he produce it to substantiate his claim?
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

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Hendrik also makes a similar error.

Post 22 "BTW if you don't notice Chosun Ilbo is Korean newspaper"

The way he said it implies, he does not believe the figures from his own source, so why should he produce it to substantiate his claim?

Bladerunner be a gentleman admit that you are WRONG! I mention Chosun ILbo because they are the party that is being affected .I mean korean newspaper naturally would be very much interested in the well being of Korean shipbuilding not because I don't have confidence in my source. All those talk about cancelling order happened early in the year when people are not sure about the economy. Now using your own resource late in the year September 2009 Here what they say

Korea - China gaining over Korean shipbuilders
Source: Korea Herald, 16 September 2009


As global demand for high-end vessels remains sluggish, Korea may soon lose the title of the world's No. 1 shipbuilding nation to China. Taking advantage of low labour cost and domestic demand, Chinese shipyards are rapidly closing the gap with their Korean rivals. Chinese order backlog stood at 55 million compensated gross tons, or CGTs, as of August 2009, accounting for 33.4% of the global order book.

With a combined order backlog of 56.52 million CGTs, Korean shipbuilders' market share is just 1 percentage point larger than China at 34.4%. In terms of new orders, China is already No. 1. Chinese shipbuilders have received new orders totaling 2.11 million CGTs, accounting for 54.2% of all global new orders. Korea's local yards received orders for 1.22 million CGTs, or 31.4%.


Now that we are in 2010 that new order become backlog order!
 
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