Cause and effect of Chinese GDP & ecnomic growth Worldwide.

solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

petty officer1 said:
uhhh... Ok, Let me say it again, the 250K is the Cheapest apartment (which you agreed in your pervious post). so the average apartments in China are about 700k to 1 milions or even more. Your average Condos in toronto is affortable by average family. But in China average people can hardly afford a 700k+ average home. Ok? and I am sure in Canada you can have a better morgage plan that are paid off when you are 82, Most Chinese family don't have that. Heck, I can buy a great house right now in Texas, I just have to come up with 10% of the house. Chinese literally have to SAVE and BORROW form family to buy a home. And the saving rate is about 42% so your 96k a year don't have much left.
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According to
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article, the average home prices in China is 4500 yuan per square meter. That makes a decent home of around 100 square meters to be 450k on average.

Of course, simply looking at averages is misleading. My hometown is Shanghai, while my wife comes from Puyang, Henan. My grandparents' old apartment, located in the heart of the Changning district, is worth over 2 million yuan. Meanwhile, my wife's classmate in Puyang bought a house in 2008 for about 3000 yuan a square meter, or about 300k to 400k total.

Let's also take a look at salaries: in Shanghai, a young professional can easily earn 10k to 15k a month. My wife's dad, who has been in Petro China for decades, earns about 5k a month. Obviously, my in-laws can't afford a house in Shanghai, but their home in Puyang is much better than my grandparents' place in Shanghai.

Also, consider this: the reason so many chinese gripe about not being able to buy a house is because there is this idea that a guy has to own a house before his girlfriend will marry him. How often in the West do you see couples in their mid-20's being able to buy a house?


Haha. sorry sir I am not a socialist, I never even stated in my post I wish for the government to provide housing for the poor. All I am saying is ASKING a homless person for 80k up front is stupid, it is like asking a 6 years girl to pull$5000 out of her pocket stupid. I just think it is a stupid price, it have nothing to do with government's social obligations.
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Okay, so I gather you think it's better for the government NOT to offer 80k houses at all then? You know, no one is forcing those people to buy the houses...

I was saying Qing's victory is over stated victory. Qing had overwhelming advantage at the time. It didn't mean Qing's sword and spear beat Russian's gun and cannon at the time. If there is a confusion or that is not what you meant to say, I apologize.
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Well, the US also had overwhelming advantage when they invaded Iraq. That doesn't undercut the argument that US is a superpower.
 
bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

solarz said:
How often in the West do you see couples in their mid-20's being able to buy a house?
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I think that depends on the countries priorities or cultural expectations.

In Europe there is a stronger culture of renting, Holland comes to mind, whereas in nz in my days there was an encouragement to own ones home. For instance in my day one could by a vey nice 1800square ft home for about $18000. Not only would the govt loan you most of the money you could capatalise on ones children.

In NZ the govt gave an inflation adjusted $6 per child from birth til 16yrs of age,
So borrowing your full child cash entitlement in advance one can either have more than enough for a home or certainly towards one.

Now weve moved away from that and the current policy is to diverse their money away fro home ownership and invest the money into productive use.
 
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rhino123

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

antimatter said:
I just don't understand Why some members are keep denying the real estate problem in CHina when Chinese government itself putting out measures to combat the issue. What's the point?
Just to argue for sake of argument?
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First of, Antimatter, it is you who kept worrying others on that bubble... if the government had already recognise the fact and the threat and was taking measure to curb it, what is the problem then?

Also can't you simply open your mind to what other is trying to say... there are measure being taken... and one of them is building of infrastructure... this by itself is to ensure the uniform distribution of development into the country.
 
bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

@ Hendrik

Im talking about a certain % of people who held the countries wealth. We know what China did with hers.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

bladerunner said:
@ Hendrik

Im talking about a certain % of people who held the countries wealth. We know what China did with hers.
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I don't know where you get the number for middle class in China. It is totaly wrong. There are presently 250 million people in China who can be classified as middle class. The average percapita in east coast is around $5000/yr Not counting PPP. As everybody said in here The problem is wealth distribution because most of poor people are in the western part of the country where the infrastructure is not that well developed

My post is to rebut your assertion that one day India will catch up to China in infrastructure, How can they?.The have a lead to begin with and yet they squandered the lead

Here it is from 2005 So my estimate should be close by now total population 1.3 billion you take 18% roughly 250 million
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The study group's definition of "middle class" was a person with a monthly income of 5000 Yuan, or about 617 US dollars; with a bachelor degree or above; and who works as a civil servant, company manager, technician or private business owner.

Professor Zhou Xiaohong estimates that the true figure could be anywhere from 11 percent to 19 percent of the population, but could not be more than 20 percent.

The survey also shows what the general public think is the definition of being middle class. When people think of the middle class, they think of the owners of private business, managers of state-run enterprises, civil servants, administrators, and technicians.
 
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rhino123

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

The reason for Ford to build their cars in India and not China is that China's market was already saturated (too many domestic companies around and joint venture. The majority of the market being taken up by Volkswagon, BYD, Chery, etc). Thus it is no longer profitable to build their cars in China. Also if you look at the marketing strategy of companies for automobile building their vehicle in China, it is not for export to other countries, but to actually sell to China domestic market.

This is because there is a huge market for the automobile, not so much in India though and so exporting from India is a viable strategy.

But what is disturbing is that China is slowly becoming more expensive even for manufacturing of consumer electronic, thus we are seeing factories moving out of China to neighbouring nation such as Vietnam.

I think the Chinese government also recognise this fact and try to lure or attract investment and manufacturing sector to move into inner China, while the more developed coastal cities could actually focus on manufacturing of high tech equipment.
 
bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

Hendrik_2000 said:
I don't know where you get the number for middle class in China. It is totaly wrong. There are presently 250 million people in China who can be classified as middle class. The average percapita in east coast is around $5000/yr Not counting PPP. As everybody said in here The problem is wealth distribution because most of poor people are in the western part of the country where the infrastructure is not that well developed

My post is to rebut your assertion that one day India will catch up to China in infrastructure, How can they?.The have a lead to begin with and yet they squandered the lead

Here it is from 2005 So my estimate should be close by now total population 1.3 billion you take 18% roughly 250 million
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The study group's definition of "middle class" was a person with a monthly income of 5000 Yuan, or about 617 US dollars; with a bachelor degree or above; and who works as a civil servant, company manager, technician or private business owner.

Professor Zhou Xiaohong estimates that the true figure could be anywhere from 11 percent to 19 percent of the population, but could not be more than 20 percent.

The survey also shows what the general public think is the definition of being middle class. When people think of the middle class, they think of the owners of private business, managers of state-run enterprises, civil servants, administrators, and technicians.
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I was referring to the type of people in my first post. Being the number of people who could spend big time like their Western Counterpart. That leaves the majority of the middle class out of it, its more the upper class. (People that could afford to buy Western Brands on a regular basis not the odd thing as a special treat.)China has a big car market but how many could afford a expensive WEstern Car as a eg. In this area China would have a disadvantage in numbers, in having purged them during the communist era.
 
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maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

petty officer1 said:
I interned for a city council man, so off course I know there is corruptions here in the US. And I also lived in Japan, I know all their legislators are run by big business. But I am talking about Chinese government's corruption problems, Which can have great negative effects on it's social and military sectors, So they (CCP) done better than a monarchy dynasty 100 years ago, that is their job to do better. It can't be used as a bragging right. I personally like to set Chinese government to a higher standard. I just like to point out corruptions are now a major problem within China. Qing is just a reminder of what corruptions can do to a country. look at Chinese soccer (football), it is one of the most popular sport in China, yet due to corruption, bribe, match fixing. Chinese national soccer team is now ranked 87th in the world. I am not being a party pooper on China's development and progress over the years, but I am just ringing a bell that China can become Qing again if the corrution problems are not addressed.
I am comparing two different generation. I personally think kids (not all) that live in city don't work as hard as their grandparents, that is strictly a personal view based on personal experiences. I can even argue the amazing development today is due to the hard works and risk taken by the pervious Chinese generation, not the 17 years old today. And what does God has to with anything here?
Like I said I am not comparing them with American kids, but their parents and grandparents. Also I said before I like to set them at a higher standard. Saying PLA don't rape woman is a accomplishment is like saying people that don't rob a bank should get a reward. That is their job not too, they are called "People's" Liberation Army for a reason, and we should have a higher standard for their actions, And saying PLA are clean as paper when it comes to dealing with civilians in China is not always true too.
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you say so much just miss the point.
each country has its problems, the Government and people will work together to solve problems,advanced Western countries are facing the same problem, that's what I told you before.
But you forget that the most basic common sense, the Qing What is that? what is Feudal society ?
1840, the Qing Dynasty was a tree to dry it on behalf of the feudal society will be wiped out.a dying feudal society, of course, being the Western powers defeated.
Qing dynasty, its not only corruption, its a SERIOUS CORRUPT and INCOMPETENT, the political system is extremely dark. and the people living in the dark misery.will you study the Qing dynasty? to see if it is what kind of society,and how the life of the people, every time famine,lots of refugees, displaced, starved to death countless people.
now, China's natural disasters still happen in every year, but the Chinese government has taken effective measures. In the case the Qing Dynasty, it is unthinkable.
eventually the people in overthrowing the Qing Dynasty., rather than being the eradication of the Western powers, they just want to plunder the wealth, do not want to eliminate the Qing Dynasty.
Demise of the feudal society had in the world.
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Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

bladerunner said:
I was referring to the type of people in my first post. Being the number of people who could spend big time like their Western Counterpart. That leaves the majority of the middle class out of it, its more the upper class. (People that could afford to buy Western Brands on a regular basis not the odd thing as a special treat.)China has a big car market but how many could afford a expensive WEstern Car as a eg. In this area China would have a disadvantage in numbers, in having purged them during the communist era.
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I don't know what are you talking about. 70% of Chinese Automobile manufacturer are joint venture between China and Foreign Automobile manufacturer.

Yup the no 1 Automaker in China is GM follow by VW They produced the same model as anything you see in North America or Europe . China has the largest market in the world producing 12million car/year so multiply that by 0.7 you got 8 million car/year sold by the like of GM, VW, Toyota, Honda ETC

I don't know here you got your preconceived idea that all Chinese are poor. In most household husband and wife work plus mom and dad chip in the money Yes they can afford foreign car and apartment and overseas travel
 
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FriedRiceNSpice

FriedRiceNSpice

Captain
Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

China has a big car market but how many could afford a expensive WEstern Car as a eg. In this area China would have a disadvantage in numbers, in having purged them during the communist era.
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I think having a society where an average middle-class citizen can afford a basic, albeit cheap car is preferable to having a society where a bigger (yet still minuscule) portion of the population can afford more branded, Western cars while the rest of the population still walk around in muck and filth. Even if you did have an expensive car in India, it would not last as long on the types of roads there as a basic Chery or other cheap domestic/joint venture produced car in China. The total spending power of the Chinese population is of a magnitude larger than that of India. And if you want to talk about the ultra-upper class, China does have more millionaires as well as billionaires as India.

On a side note-
Direct GDP comparisons from the early-mid industrial era do not really tell the entire story. You cannot compete a pre-industrial empire with a huge population to a small, but industrialized, early modern nation-state. You have to take into account that a huge portion of the GDP of nations such as China, India, and even Russia/Austro-Hungary consist of subsistence level agriculture. However, today only a small fraction of China's GDP comes from subsistence level farming so GDP comparisons are much more valid today.
 
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