All About the Chinese Su-33

tphuang

tphuang

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adeptitus said:
At this point, I'd say carrier based J-10, J-11, JH-7, L-15, etc. are all speculations. While technically possible, the PLAN has never operated carriers or carrier aircraft, nor has PRC's aviation industry ever built carrier aircraft before.

The only realistic options for the PLAN is to import Su-33 or MiG-29K from Russia and study them. Since the PLAAF already operate Su-27/Su-30 series aircraft, the obvious choice is Su-33 with many similiar components.

Personally, I don't object to purchasing a small batch for R&D purposes... but I think now is not the time to spend a lot of $$ to build a carrier program with manned aircraft. The resources are better spent on long-distance/stealth armed UAV's, C&C, and space-based technology IMO. It's near impossible for the PLAN to "catch up" to USN in area of traditional supercarriers and manned combat aircraft. But investing in the future (armed UAV technology) might give them a better edge down the road.
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but they are developed manned naval fighters anyhow. I will be interested in seeing whether CAC or SAC get the order. Let's put it this way, the Russians developed Mig-29k, even though they might only get 16 orders from the Russians. The French developed Rafale-M with the intent to equip only 2 carriers. China will get at least 3 in my opinion in the next 15-20 years, why would they not invest in a naval fighter program? SAC already have the capabilty to modify flankers, let's step it up a notch.
 
speculator

speculator

New Member
adeptitus said:
At this point, I'd say carrier based J-10, J-11, JH-7, L-15, etc. are all speculations. While technically possible, the PLAN has never operated carriers or carrier aircraft, nor has PRC's aviation industry ever built carrier aircraft before.

The only realistic options for the PLAN is to import Su-33 or MiG-29K from Russia and study them. Since the PLAAF already operate Su-27/Su-30 series aircraft, the obvious choice is Su-33 with many similiar components.

Personally, I don't object to purchasing a small batch for R&D purposes... but I think now is not the time to spend a lot of $$ to build a carrier program with manned aircraft. The resources are better spent on long-distance/stealth armed UAV's, C&C, and space-based technology IMO. It's near impossible for the PLAN to "catch up" to USN in area of traditional supercarriers and manned combat aircraft. But investing in the future (armed UAV technology) might give them a better edge down the road.
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long range UAV's are a long road to go for china. besides, these uav's do not have the superpower effect of large carriers. for example: when america gets pissed off at someone, it puts CBG's on its doorstep, a clear message of 'don't mess with me'.
 
J

Jiang

Banned Idiot
speculator said:
An aircraft that is worth $50 million a piece. More than Twice of the Indian MKI, which itself is a formidable aircraft. 2 Su-33's are due to be delivered during 2007-2008. Not a long time from now. These aircraft are stated to be far superior than the current flanker-d's that the Russians are operating.
So, what would you expect to be on them? There stats? and would they have an edge over the F/A-18 superhornets and other aircraft like such in the region? And how will it effect the balance of power?

Liu
:china:
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What on earth are you talking about:rofl: :rofl: . One MIK cost 60 million at least. Because MIK has 25 millio$ worth of lience fee each, and to build it will cost 35 million at least, caust indians can't make the engine, radar, missiles, nor its avionics. So all are imported from russia, indians just put them together in hal that's all.

BTW, I think China will most likely cancle the deal, the Chinese just want to buy 2 Su-33 to study, then come up with its own, J-11B is a very good example, as we all know that J-11B is far better than Su-27 too.
 
L

lilzz

Banned Idiot
Did China receive the 2 SU-33 planes already?
I have a feeling that the Russians might change their mind. They might suspect CHina is going to reverse engineering the plane and not going to purchase the whole fleet of planes as first prosposed.

Recent news, the russia cancel the proposed miliatry cargo tranport plane deal /w China. They want renegotiate the prices. How lame!
 
D

dollarman

New Member
lilzz said:
Did China receive the 2 SU-33 planes already?
I have a feeling that the Russians might change their mind. They might suspect CHina is going to reverse engineering the plane and not going to purchase the whole fleet of planes as first prosposed.

Recent news, the russia cancel the proposed miliatry cargo tranport plane deal /w China. They want renegotiate the prices. How lame!
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Off topic and no they didn't. An issue arose with the Kazakh factory which was slated for production. You can jab all about this in the appropriate thread.

Honest to God, China, and Shenyang, will not reverse engineer the Su-33, and the Russians will not cancel the deal. The original purpose of the purchase was FOR TRIAL AND EVALUATION.

The idea of a ~48 plane follow up purchase was only speculated and may have been brought up in the negotiations, but was in any way or form proposed or promised by the Chinese.

If the planes were delivered, we probably would have heard about it, but its already been about seven months, a little long of a wait.
 
crobato

crobato

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My opinion is that the whole deal is in danger, in light of the MKI repricing issue. Its probably largely the money and annum rates issue, and China may not agree in paying 50 to 60 million per plane when they think they can produce something for half that. And I don't think the Russians would be that stupid to sell two aircraft knowing its going to be reverse engineered. They will want their pound of flesh and their share of the pie. I think the Russians would want 24 aircraft at least.
 
L

lilzz

Banned Idiot
crobato said:
My opinion is that the whole deal is in danger, in light of the MKI repricing issue. Its probably largely the money and annum rates issue, and China may not agree in paying 50 to 60 million per plane when they think they can produce something for half that. And I don't think the Russians would be that stupid to sell two aircraft knowing its going to be reverse engineered. They will want their pound of flesh and their share of the pie. I think the Russians would want 24 aircraft at least.
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If russian is not willing to sell, doesn't ukraine has some of those Su-33? If ukraine does, then china should just purchase couple used Su-33 from ukraine at a cheaper price.
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
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But those are the early prototypes, and it is rumored that they are now in Chinese hands.

As prototypes these are hardly perfect. There are many modifications and refinements made to the Su-33 as a result of hard operational experience, that what counts is the lastest version, the Su-33UB, which has many changes even over the old single seater Su-33.
 
Chengdu J-10

Chengdu J-10

Junior Member
All an all personaly I think the whole Su-33 deal to China, is a big rip off. Russia is trying to rip off China selling the Su-33 at that kind of high per unit price. China can effectively design their own carrier aircraft, but it'll just take some time. But hey better to go domestic though. Its like the deal made when Russia sold soverney destroyers to China, biggest rip off to China though, and it was seen later that China wasn't happy about it. Su-33 is nothing special from the J-11 currently with China only modified version folded wing, arrestor hooks strengthen airframe. These criteria which Su-33 only differs from the J-11, has already been solved or to say one crieteria. PLAAF have strengthen the airframe structure of the J-11B.
 
S

Scratch

Captain
I guess if it was that easy as you suggest - only add some parts and strengthen the airframe a bit - China would never even have come up with the idea of acquring two aircraft for evaluation. I think it's somewhat harder.
I'm not saying they cannot do it, just they will have to put some serious efforts and a considerable amount of time into it.
I guess it very much depends on how fast they come ahead with the Varyag, and how fast they want to progress afterwards.
With the lack of new deals (i.e. AL-31) and problems in others (IL-76) I get the feeling China might try it alone. However, I also think that may then take a little longer.
 
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