All About the Chinese Su-33

J

Jiang

Banned Idiot
crobato said:
Let me repeat this again one more time.

Here is a simple way to describe radar. "It" emits. Targets reflects. "It" receives. "It" is one device in one location. A single station.

Just about every kind of radar you see is "It", hence it is called monostatic. Mono as in one, and static as in station.

Stealth works by deflecting the way the target reflects the radar to anything but "It". So while Stealth does get the emission, it reflects the radar AWAY from "IT" as much as possible.

Thus whether its PESA, AESA or My *ASSA, its still a monostatic station, and electronic scanning is just a method of forming and diverting radar beams. Stealth will still deflect the radar away from the source.

So how do you beat Stealth?

Stealth still deflects radar, but it still deflects it somewhere---anywhere but the direction of "IT".

So, you still can pick up these emissions, but the reciever can no longer be in the position of "IT".

Thus we introduce a second "IT". A second station in other words. The radar become Bi-Static or Two station. Stealth does not know where this second station is going to be located, and so the deflected radar may instead, be recieved by the second station.

You can increase the number of receiving stations, and hence, becomes multistation or multistatic.

Then through a datalink, you can feed the information to interceptors and missiles.

The term Passive Coherent location is actually a form of multistatic radar, and not a true passive system. In the case of this system, the radar emitters can be civilian sources with calculated fix positions, like celphone repeaters. The recievers are all passive antennas trained to recieve reflects of these civilian sources.

Another way to defeat Stealth is by long radiowave. Radar is like light, it is an electromagnetic radiation. Light will deflect and reflect differently based on frequency. Thus while Stealth may be focused against X band radar, the radar which most fighters use, it cannot bend long frequency radar the same way. Thus F-117s can end up being detected by antiquated radar sets.
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Well,:eek:ff :eek:ff . Let us keep talk about Su-33. In my thought. I think it sucks. First of all, it can not lunch PL-12 nor R-77. Second of all, its avionics is still in the 1980's, no way near to satisfy pla demands. Third of all, its radar also sucks, its radar is based on su-27's. Last of all, it cost 50 million a peace, a rip off.
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
If the Su-33 came with the Su-30MK2 radar, I guess it is a rip off. But it will launch R-77 and Kh-31A antiship missile, as well as various precision ground strike roles using Kh-29T, or KAB bombs. All the ground attack functionality of the MKK is still in it.

One thing, it makes it easier for the PLANAF Su-30MK2 pilots to train on the fighter. Logistics and maintenance would be easier.

I am guessing one way, they could cooperate is that Sukhoi should sell the plane as kit, complete with airframe assembly and engine but no avionics. The Chinese can fit their own radar and avionics suite.
 
SteelBird

SteelBird

Colonel
crobato said:
If the Su-33 came with the Su-30MK2 radar, I guess it is a rip off. But it will launch R-77 and Kh-31A antiship missile, as well as various precision ground strike roles using Kh-29T, or KAB bombs. All the ground attack functionality of the MKK is still in it.

One thing, it makes it easier for the PLANAF Su-30MK2 pilots to train on the fighter. Logistics and maintenance would be easier.

I am guessing one way, they could cooperate is that Sukhoi should sell the plane as kit, complete with airframe assembly and engine but no avionics. The Chinese can fit their own radar and avionics suite.
Click to expand...

Generally, I quite agree with you. Land base Sukhoi family have had so far improvement including the Su30's, Su34, Su35 and Su37, however I haven't heard so much about any improvement about Su33. If you want the Su33 to wear other Sukhoi's radar and avionic, does it mean that it would take time and money to develop? Further more, if you want to buy only the airframe and engine without radar and avionic suite, I'm afraid the Russian won't do that business, simply because they want to earn more money, though radar and avionics suite do cost a high percentage of the over all aircraft.
 
J

Jiang

Banned Idiot
crobato said:
If the Su-33 came with the Su-30MK2 radar, I guess it is a rip off. But it will launch R-77 and Kh-31A antiship missile, as well as various precision ground strike roles using Kh-29T, or KAB bombs. All the ground attack functionality of the MKK is still in it.

One thing, it makes it easier for the PLANAF Su-30MK2 pilots to train on the fighter. Logistics and maintenance would be easier.

I am guessing one way, they could cooperate is that Sukhoi should sell the plane as kit, complete with airframe assembly and engine but no avionics. The Chinese can fit their own radar and avionics suite.
Click to expand...

Just foget about Su-33 and go for self made. Just look at what happen to the Pak-Sino project the Jf17. Russian can't be trusted. If we buy their junks, then they will later on ask us to buy their junk parts such as engine, radar, weapons. Also rip you off as hard as they can. So just spend more money, more time rather than buying russian junks.
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
SteelBird said:
Generally, I quite agree with you. Land base Sukhoi family have had so far improvement including the Su30's, Su34, Su35 and Su37, however I haven't heard so much about any improvement about Su33. If you want the Su33 to wear other Sukhoi's radar and avionic, does it mean that it would take time and money to develop? Further more, if you want to buy only the airframe and engine without radar and avionic suite, I'm afraid the Russian won't do that business, simply because they want to earn more money, though radar and avionics suite do cost a high percentage of the over all aircraft.
Click to expand...

It would take money and time yes, but adapting the Su-30MK2 radar to the Su-33 won't take that much of either.

I think the Russians know that China will come up with its navalized J-11 sooner or later, so they are not in that strong a position. If they are willing to sell you two planes alone, that's desperation.

Logically for both sides to share the pie, I think it's best the Russians sell the airframes and engines in kits, then allow the Chinese to put their radar and avionics into it.
 
Chengdu J-10

Chengdu J-10

Junior Member
Basically nailed all the points. Russia selling China the airframe and engines of the Su-33 would be the best option and most likely. As the current Su-33 equipped with avionics and radar can only fire Russia munitions is a downside in which China really isn't too keen on. Since the Russian avionics cannot support Chinese munitions this means that China has to purchase Russian munitions in which China really now is beginning to hate doing. As they have their own reliable munitions which are also just as capable as their counter parts. In the end China is looking for domestic. So Russia selling the airframe and improved engines of the Su-33 to China would be the most appealing to buy. As China can outfit them with their own radar and avionics allowing it to fire Chinese munitions. Also the cost of the Su-33 would be more cost efficient for China but less gain for Russia so it is a win lose situation.
 
isthvan

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
As for Su-33 I doubt that PRC will buy basic 1980s version Russian use(btw. only reason why Su-33 were not upgraded is small quantity of Su-33s in service) but rather quite upgraded version(compare IN Mig-29k to old Mig-29k version). Assuming that there is need for relatively small batch of naval fighters and taking in account development costs for domestic fighter and Su-33 commonality whit Su-30MKK fighters in PLAN service IMHO Su-33 purchase is only logical way for creating naval fighter wings...
 
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speculator

speculator

New Member
yea, i would expect it to be atleast at the mk2 level since it costs more. but then again, some of the price tag could be used to re-start the production lines, re-do the designs etc etc
 
A

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
At this point, I'd say carrier based J-10, J-11, JH-7, L-15, etc. are all speculations. While technically possible, the PLAN has never operated carriers or carrier aircraft, nor has PRC's aviation industry ever built carrier aircraft before.

The only realistic options for the PLAN is to import Su-33 or MiG-29K from Russia and study them. Since the PLAAF already operate Su-27/Su-30 series aircraft, the obvious choice is Su-33 with many similiar components.

Personally, I don't object to purchasing a small batch for R&D purposes... but I think now is not the time to spend a lot of $$ to build a carrier program with manned aircraft. The resources are better spent on long-distance/stealth armed UAV's, C&C, and space-based technology IMO. It's near impossible for the PLAN to "catch up" to USN in area of traditional supercarriers and manned combat aircraft. But investing in the future (armed UAV technology) might give them a better edge down the road.
 
S

Scratch

Captain
I think all this "UACV on PLAN CVs" talk is still too far away to be an option. The USN started studies with the X-47 only recently and is still at least one decade away from operational use I think. And without downplaying China's technological achivements, it is still perhaps one to two decades behind the US in certain areas, including UACVs, imo.
And China won't wait that long (20-30years) to get a CV with it's airwing operational.

And I think Varyag could be ready for at least training deployments rather fast, what also prohibits an all indigenous carrier aircraft project I believe. So the Su-33 with MK2/J-11B avonics sounds plausible to me.
 
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