Aircraft Carriers

Obi Wan Russell said:

...an AEW component to that configuration is the next logical step, and one which would give more independence to the PHIBRONS. They could provide their own air defence (to a degree), the Osprey AEWs could provide vital long range detection to the escorting Aegis ships...For the purchase of a small number of extra Ospreys the USN virtually doubles the number of 'CV's it can deploy independently, and that alone justifies the USNs purchase.

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Exactly, and when you add the Marine F-35B to that equation, and augment it with an AEW Osprey and possibly an ASW Osprey...you have the makings of a fairly strong "Jeep" Carrier that could significantly improve a PHIBRON's independent opertional capabilities. Say you had 12 F-35s, three AEW and four ASW Ospreys, and then kept room for air assault helos for the Amphib part of the equation, a Wasp class could effectively operate in both roles IMHO.

bd popeye said:

I rerally don't know of any other instances where it has happened

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Popeye, I believe that some of the large amphibious assault vessels have actually embarked 20-24 Harriers into combat...though in a ground support role and not a sea control role.

If I am not mistaken, and based on what I have read, USS Nassau carried 20 Harriers in 1990 for operation Desert Storm in Iraq. In February 1991 those aircraft supported the amphibious assault of Faylakah Island. During the last week of Desert Storm the Nassau and her aircraft provided Strike packages against targets on the mainland.

In Iraqi Freedom both USS Bataan (LHD 5) and Bon Homme Richard (LHD 6) operated 24 Harriers each, first using them in combat starting in March 2003.

BTW, that picture of the America with all those Army helos on deck is a real rare thing and a real keepr.

bd popeye said:

In 1996 the USS America was outfitted with US Army helos as a prelude to an US invasion of Haiti. I did manage to find a pic of the ship loaded with helos..

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And the USS Kitty Hawk had US Army SF with their helos, alongside of its reduced airwing, in the Arabian Sea during Enduring Freedom. My point is, just because new aircraft ordered and some trials completed doesn't give an ironclad guarantee of that aircraft long operational life.

Limitations
Because of the extreme downdraft of the propellers, Marines cannot rappel out the side doors as on conventional helicopters. Moreover, the engines would block the firing arc of side-mounted machine guns and so none can be fitted in these positions. Marines will use the rear ramp to exit and use the M240 as a rear mounted gun.[3] A chin-mounted turret has also been proposed.
The Osprey's 38 foot (11.58 meters) proprotor diameter makes a conventional takeoff impossible, as the blades would strike the ground. With the nacelles set at 45 degrees or less to the vertical, it is capable of making shortened ground-roll takeoffs as well as vertical, helicopter-style departures.
Adding to the program's problematic development, the Osprey squadron commander at New River, Lieutenant Colonel Odin Lieberman, instructed his unit that they needed to falsify maintenance records to make the plane appear more reliable. A crew member's recording included him stating that "We need to lie or manipulate the data, or however you wanna call it".

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...there are three issues the V-22 needs to face: 1) Assuming it brings all the performance increases advertised, how important are the increases to Marine Corps combat effectiveness in the 21st century; 2) Is the V-22's high cost affordable?, and 3) The V-22 is new technology, and it is a very complex aircraft. Reports of poor reliability are beginning to surface. If these reports are accurate, can these problems be resolved and the results verified in further testing?

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There were many cancelled/reduced projects like RAH-66 Comanche even after procurement.

The Pentagon approved production quantities in the Comanche program's early years that fall slightly short of the earlier plan: 15 in 2007, 23 in 2008 and 35 in 2009. The earlier schedule called for 18, 24 and 36 aircraft, respectively. The latest plan lets the Army buy up to 60 helicopters per year once full production begins after 2009, versus 62 under the old plan.

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Cancelling the Commanche was a foolish thing to do, and will be regretted in years to come IMHO. Cancelling the Osprey would leave the US armed forces with nothing but legacy helo designs dating back to the sixties or earlier, with associated high maintenance requirements. Lockheed Martin might try to fill the gap with US production of the US101, which is a modern design at least, but does not offer the range of capability of the Osprey. Reliability issues with the V-22 will most likely be addressed away from the public eye as much as possible (expect to hear the usual 'leaks' over the next few years. The American defence establishments' propensity for leaks proves that most conspiracy theories are bunkum, as someone would have blurted the truth out at some point. Faked Moon Landings? It would be easier to go to the Moon!) Much as I would like to see the US101 attract significant orders from the US military (a little national pride here) and indeed I believe it will in the next few years, I don't want to see it happen at the expense of the V-22 but as a complimentary aircraft type.

Obi Wan sez;

Much as I would like to see the US101 attract significant orders from the US military (a little national pride here) and indeed I believe it will in the next few years, I don't want to see it happen at the expense of the V-22 but as a complimentary aircraft type.

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The US101 is an excellent aircraft and the US DoD would do well to purchase some variants. Espically the AEW version. Imangine that on Obi's LHA/CV(?) with 20 JSF.s....nice combination.

I do not think the DoD will cancell the V-22 Osprey. They have already comissioned the first USMC squadron with more waiting in the wings so to speak.

bd popeye said:

I do not think the DoD will cancell the V-22 Osprey. They have already comissioned the first USMC squadron with more waiting in the wings so to speak.

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I asked an experienced pilot with decades of flying time about V-22, and he said that it will be always difficult to fly, as you must transition from vercical to horizontal and back, the most dangerous phase of flight. So, even if it's fielded I don't expect it will stay so for long. Aviation history is full of short lived operational aircraft!

Digital Flight Control systems (as are being developed for the F-35B) will make the transition phase a simple matter. The pilot will simply select transition mode and the computers will do it for him, although the pilot will retain overall control and can abort the landing or takeoff at any time. The Harrier is said to be difficult to fly because it is all done manually, with three primary 'inceptors', stick, throttle and nozzle control lever as well as rudder pedals which have to be balanced by the pilot during transition to or from vertical and horizontal flight. The JSFs system will only have two inceptors, throttle and stick, under the pilot's direct control with all other functions being handled by the computer. If you let go of the controls of a Harrier during the hover, it will fall out of the sky. Do this in the JSF and the plane will stabilise itself and remain where you left it,- hovering 50ft off the ground for example until you decide to go elsewhere. The same technology will find it's way into the V-22 in due course.

History is also full of revolutionary aircraft that were dismissed by the 'experts' (Ex is a Has-been, and a spurt is a drip under pressure! Definition courtesy Dr John Fozzard, chief designer of the Harrier...) but went on to confound everyone and serve with distinction for decades around the world.

How do you know that the computer could be adopted for that with 100% success?

The Marines liked the V-22 sales pitch and still want an aircraft that can meet that advertised performance, but the program has produced a V-22 whose performance not only failed to meet expectations, but performs well below the minimum required. In addition, it is costing twice as much to procure and safety concerns remain a major issue. ...
“Considering its performance limitations, the V-22 is going to be a costly aircraft to buy and to maintain,” Philip Coyle, a former chief of the Pentagon’s operational testing directorate, told ITN. “And considering the accident history of the V-22, it may be costly in terms of lives lost as well. Spending money on an aircraft with significant combat limitations is a waste, especially at a time when the U.S. military is spread thin and could well use the resources for other, higher-priority needs. If the V-22 causes further loss of life, that will be a tragedy that could have been prevented by a decision to delay full-rate production.”

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Found this chart on Global Security.org a while back, and I thought it was a little out of date and inaccurate, so I've had a go at updating it including all active, reserve, and building carriers. It's not finished yet but I thought I'd share it with you:

Obi Wan Russell said:

Found this chart on Global Security.org a while back, and I thought it was a little out of date and inaccurate, so I've had a go at updating it including all active, reserve, and building carriers. It's not finished yet but I thought I'd share it with you:

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I have a very similar comparison page on my World Wide Aircraft Carrier site.

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I am keeping that page current to what is actually either already commissioned or currently actually under construction.

I also have another pictorial comparison page of just some of the major carrier classes.

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. On that page I include the QE.

Nice charts guys!

Hey Obi Wan. Why did you not include the new RN & FN CVF design? I think they will be built...Later than sooner perhaps but they are on the way.

Obi wan if you have anymore deminsions and CVW's of the proposed FN/RN CVF please post them. Thanks!