Aircraft Carriers III

Brumby

Major
Not a problem, and even if they were as pure as the wind driven snow?? (they are political hacks), they don't necessarily understand the threat, wouldn't know what to do about it if they did? They are "policy wonks" and they have wonky thinking. Lots of cops who can opt to carry something special instead of their dime store glock???? that is ugly, have large magazine capacity and are cheap. There is a difference, a forged 1911 can be "dolled up" to suit yourself, stag handles, pearl handles, a thing of beauty, and a tool you trust your life to?

The thing is a better tool lasts longer and ultimately as in the case of the F-22, will pay back dividends, the bean counter will never get, because he or she is never gonna be staring down the barrel of somebody else's AAM.

the truth is the US defense contractors have given us superior tools, looking to Lochheed, the C-130 has been and continues to be a very good bang for the buck.

AFB,
Normally we see the world from identical lens but respectfully I have to say that in this instance you have gone off tangent from the nature of the conversation. The subject discussion is not about :
(i) the questionable utility or value of the Ford program; or
(ii)the overall quality of the US defence industry and their historical contribution to the security of the nation; or
(iii) the under valuation of existential threat; or
(iv)the dysfunctional contribution of political hacks towards the process

It is simply about the Ford program incurring significant cost overrun and according to GAO, the original estimate was unrealistic to begin with. This means the program right from the beginning would questionably underperform relative to its business case as we now know as crystallised by significant cost overrun. The facts are the USN leadership put the business case and the costing together and the actual program cost incurred are what it is. There is no question of falsification of facts or data. The question then is what is the big deal? My main points are twofold. Firstly, it is self inflicted and opens are a credibility gap upon the management and future deliverables. Secondly, it presents a potential risk to the future of the program and the likes we have seen for example like the F-22 when the credibility gap becomes too big to breach and forces the hand of stakeholders. It has already open up a conversation about alternatives whether there will be a CVN-81.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Alright, I think everyone has had their say on the Ford, its costs, its future, etc., etc.

It is what it is now, and we know that the first three are being built.

Ford is in the water and preparing for trials. JFK is being built, Enterprise is approved and currently being logistically planned and even put together at various sub contractors.

The fourth, CVN-81, will not start building in Newport News for another ten years.

We will have plenty of time to see what transpires.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION
 

navyreco

Senior Member
Just some eye candy

French CVN Charles de Gaulle Conducts First Arabian Gulf Missions Against ISIL as CTF 50
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
FS Charles de Gaulle (R 91) strikes ISIS

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ARABIAN GULF (Dec. 20, 2015) A French Rafale Marine aircraft prepares to launch from the flight deck of the aircraft carrier FS Charles de Gaulle (R 91) as the French Navy begins their missions in the Arabian Gulf supporting Operation Inherent Resolve. In a move that demonstrates the interoperability and partnership between the naval forces of the U.S. and France, the French Navy is leading carrier-based naval strike operations for Commander U.S. Naval Forces Central Command in support of Operation Inherent Resolve - the fight to degrade and ultimately destroy the ISIL terrorist organization. (Photos courtesy of French Navy/Released)
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
I really hope and really do hope that when UK commissions the two QE carriers they are equipped with full air wing of F35B and that they are deployed on a permanent basis and I mean permanent basis

None of this half half stuff

One goes out another comes in or both go out and none come back

One should be deployed in Mediterranean and East of Suez

The second should be deployed to cover North Sea, Arctic, North Atlantic

4 carriers would ensure a 24/7 presence by the Royal Navy

And you can be sure that UK deterrence would have Russians running for cover

Uk needs to get aggressive, it needs to get out there like it did during the Cold War when it had every major Russian warship tagged including all the Kiev class

France carrier strike group just doesn't cut it with country's like Russia
 
I believe I'm not "responding to Moderation above" (but I noticed it, that's why I'm mentioning it):
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Defense Secretary
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‘s controversial
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sparked intense debate amongst the defense community. In that document, Carter directs the Navy to procure more
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and truncate the
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program, among many other measures. Carter’s far-reaching proposal spawned an even more radical proposal by an esteemed naval analyst to shake up the US Navy’s force structure. Among the various suggestions that
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to Breaking Defense, the most controversial is the one to build more
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(LHDs and LHAs) in the place of
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(CVNs).

The Marines

One advantage of amphibians,
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, is that the Marines embarked onboard the amphib allows it to carry out various peacetime missions that the carrier can’t. While he didn’t delineate what these missions are, in the post-Cold War period, Marines have been deployed in various
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(OOTW) like non-combatant evacuation and
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.

Is the LHD more capable than the carrier in handling such operations? Yes, but only to the extent that the amphibian, with some 1,900 Marines embarked, has a sizeable ground-troop complement that enables it to better handle operations short of war that necessitate a larger force ashore. In contrast, the carrier does not currently embark a battalion-sized ground force; indeed, the norm is for a small SEa-Air-Land (SEAL)
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contingent to deploy together with it. However, a “light footprint” approach is more suited for many missions where there is no need for a substantial number of the 1,900 Marines onboard the LHD to
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.

As a matter of fact, for smaller-scale OOTW missions that may have a kinetic element, such as counter-terrorism and Tactical Recovery of Aircraft and Personnel, the carrier’s small naval special warfare component would probably suffice. Even if more ground forces are needed, say to facilitate a large-scale non-combatant evacuation from a besieged US embassy, Marine Fleet Anti-terrorist Security Teams (FASTs) could augment or even replace the SEALs. Being forward stationed near geostrategically sensitive areas –
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– these units could be deployed quickly to any carrier in the same locality.

That being said, there is a plan currently in the pipeline to
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again, including carriers. The driver is the need to bridge the “
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” caused by the relative paucity of amphibious warfare vessels. While further details of this initiative, such as the number of Marines to be deployed on each ship, have yet to be worked out, initial signs are encouraging with
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the concept.

The Air Wing

Polmar also made the point that
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in capabilities, especially range. Yes, it seems weak in the face of some of the modern
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belonging to America’s potential peer and near-peer adversaries. But has Polmar considered the fact that
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is decidedly weaker? He did acknowledge the fact that the carrier is capable of
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, which the LHD is not. However, Polmar did not mention the flat-top has organic airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft —
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— and electronic warfare (EW) planes —
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— two areas that the LHD’s air wing is flagrantly deficient in.

While such capabilities may seem like overkill against terrorists and insurgents, it’s worth noting that sophisticated anti-aircraft and anti-ship weapons are proliferating even to non-state actors like
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and the
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. Indeed, “better to be safe than sorry” can never be truer than here, and having AEW and EW assets hedges against US forces being surprised. Furthermore, the carrier has a decent-sized complement of eight MH-60S Knighthawk utility helicopters with the vertical-lift capability required for a variety of OOTW missions. It is therefore rather surprising that Polmar said that the carrier can’t carry out as well many peacetime missions as the LHD.

The Numbers Game

Polmar, like many other critics of the large-deck carrier, maintained that it’d be better to have more light flat-tops rather than one heavy one. He even went as far as to imply that four small-deck carriers are equivalent to a big-deck one. When Polmar cited $3 billion being needed to build an amphib and $12-odd billion for a flat-top in general terms, he was arguably referring to the new
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(LHA) and the upcoming
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.

Had Polmar been more meticulous about the actual unit cost of each platform, he would have realized that one Ford carrier is actually cheaper than three America LHAs. According to the US Government Accountability Office, USS America’s unit cost is
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. On the other hand, the $12.9 billion needed for the upcoming USS Ford is not merely the unit cost, but also includes some
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for detailed design/non-recurring engineering purposes, which is the one-off cost to research, develop, design and test a new product — something many critics of the Ford fail to consider.

While the unit cost of USS Ford is still a princely $9.6 billion, the unit cost of her sister ships is likely to go down as the Ford program matures. And doing the math based on the figure of $9.6 billion, building just three America amphibs would actually cost more than getting one Ford flat-top, and it’d be less bang for the buck at that, as shown earlier.

Last of all, Polmar failed to consider the fact that the more amphibious assault ships that the Navy acquires, the more surface ships needed to escort the amphibs. This is because each Amphibious Ready Group (ARG) centered on an LHA/LHD also consists of three or four
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. The presence of these ships is essential considering the minimal self-defense capabilities of the amphibians. Create three new ARGs and you need around 10 destroyers and cruisers to join them — but the US Navy is already facing a numbers crunch with regard to its surface combatants.

The Case For Carriers

...
... size-limit reached; you can read the rest in the source:
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according to Jane's
USN's second Ford-class carrier 'tracking well' on cost targets, says HII
Key Points
  • John F Kennedy (CVN 79) is 15% complete and tracking to cost targets
  • The carrier is expected to be delivered in FY 2023
Shipbuilders are progressing as planned on the US Navy's (USN's) second Ford-class nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, under construction at Huntington Ingalls Industries (HII) Newport News Shipbuilding division, officials told IHS Jane's .

John F Kennedy (CVN 79) is 15% complete in HII's drydock in Newport News, Virginia, the United States, Mike Shawcross, the vice-president in charge of CVN 79 construction, told IHS Jane's .

"We are tracking well in the early stages of this programme as we leverage lessons learned from [lead carrier Gerald R Ford ] CVN 78," said Shawcross.

CVN 78 is being completed at a nearby pier and in 2016 is expected to set sail on its first sea trials. The lead carrier launched with a high level of structural and tank coating completion and the same approach is being taken on CVN 79, Shawcross noted. He added that another lesson learned from CVN 78 was the higher level of unit pre-outfitting on the lead carrier, which reduced time and costs once the unit had been lifted into place. The build plan for CVN 79 incorporates 30% more pre-outfitting of its units.

Shawcross said the CVN 79 construction team plans to conduct 30 superlifts into the drydock in 2016. Half of those lifts will weigh more than 400 tonnes. A number of major pieces of equipment also will be loaded into the carrier throughout the year, he added.

The final structural steel unit for CVN 79 will be completed in the second quarter of 2019, said Shawcross.

"The optimal way to benefit from lessons learned is to continue building carriers on five-year centres," he added. "A stable build plan optimises our ability to perform well with both cost and schedule."
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Much more easy qualified a pilot on a Rafale M as on a Super-Etendard, for give an idea twice as easy, fewer flights, theroricaly pilots flight 180 h/year minimum NATO standard but pilots " Hiboux ", owls qualified for night 220 h.

But don' t forget they are pilot sure but above all sailors, sailors of sky :)

One feature front gear different for Rafale M ( navalised about 500 kg in more as AF Rafale )
to see almost impossible but the nose landing gear compresses before catapulting and and it relaxes after.

Rafale M also have a hard point in less 13 as AF Rafale 14.
Excellent disponiblity, fighters deployed 90 % as Mirage 2000D.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Much more easy qualified a pilot on a Rafale M as on a Super-Etendard, for give an idea twice as easy, fewer flights, theroricaly pilots flight 180 h/year minimum NATO standard but pilots " Hiboux ", owls qualified for night 220 h.

But don' t forget they are pilot sure but above all sailors, sailors of sky :)

One feature front gear different for Rafale M ( navalised about 500 kg in more as AF Rafale )
to see almost impossible but the nose landing gear compresses before catapulting and and it relaxes after.

Rafale M also have a hard point in less 13 as AF Rafale 14.
Excellent disponiblity, fighters deployed 90 % as Mirage 2000D.

Good points all Forbin, and I have no doubt the Rafael is much easier to qual than the Super-Etendard, modern aerodynamics as opposed to the classics?? LOL

this is all presented somewhat "tongue in cheek", but trust me, if you get the sailors and the aviators together and throw in a little booze, it would all come out, and I have no doubt that a few fists have been involved as they tried to "figure it out". I have earned the "Brat" title

The nose gear actually extends prior to catapult launch, to establish a positive angle of attack, if you have ever hand launched those rubber band launched balsa jets, that gets you off the deck. LOL

and those Naval Aviators would point out they are pilots first and foremost, and that ship is just "their" own little mobile airpark, that the poor sailors get to "bring round" when they need a "pea patch" to fly out of? I guess if we have any naval aviators they could tell me if I am right?? or wrong???

They would also point out that they have to have bigger "rocks"?? and if you disagreed they would invite you along to ride "shotgun" as they do "night traps" LOL maniacal laughter here:D:D:D:D
 
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