Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Obi Wan Russell

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VIP Professional
If this report is 50% true should the Indians persue another CV as a "stop gap measure"? In other words could the In be loaned the Invincible by the RN? After all the Indians have already Harriers and are proficent in the use of the ski ramp.

It's possible, but unlikely unless Viraat develops serious mechanical problems in the near future preventing her from continuing in service. Also, the Indians tend to procrastinate over these decisions for years (look at how long they took to close the deal on Gorshkov) so by the time a deal was struck the new Vikrant might be ready for sea! Having said that, I still think all of the Invincibles are destined for further careers probably in the Indian ocean and/or Pacific. Pakistan might try to build on it's new friendlier relations with the west (still a long way to go on that though) and buy Invincible as part of a package deal for F-35Bs just as India bought Mig29s with a carrier thrown in. Invincible is in good condition, well maintained, fitted with modern command and control facilities, good accomodation and a modern radar suite (she is far in advance of anything in the Pakistani Navy or the IN for that matter) so would represent a real step change in capability for either Navy. Without a carrier, the PN will always be an 'also ran' in any naval conflict in the Indian Ocean. Invincible won't officially be 'on the market' until 2010, and Illustrious and Ark Royal will be flying the white ensign for quite a while after that (at least 2014 and 2016 respectively, though I suspect Ark will be retained a while longer in the LPH role simply because it is cheaper to do so than buying a replacement in the short term).
 

harryRIEDL

New Member
It may come to that but personally I think that as they've spent so much money on it so far they might as well bite the bullet and write the Russians another cheque. There may also be steep penalty clauses in the contract if India wanted to back out. The whole business has the appearance of a complete fiasco and I get the feeling that Russia has taken India for a ride on this project. As Harry mentioned above, they're not even getting a particularly capable carrier, the illustrations and models of Vikramaditya as completed look ridiculously cramped and contrived. This ship will have a maximum air group of 30 fixed and rotary wing aircraft, the same as the slightly smaller Vikrant class ships! Of course had things gone to plan they would have got a bargain, but now it looks like a very bitter lesson. :(

thats the thing i hate most about the deal that their is no improvement in the carrier over a HMS Hermes in a design of TWICE THE TONNAGE with that horrible thin carrier deck a that odd placement of the lifts and lastly that massive island :mad: .
they seem to be stuck in this deal and the Russians are demanding more money for the Su30 I wouldn't want to be the Indian defense minster:coffee:

you don't think the Indians would want Kitty hawk when it retires and buying Super hornets or rafeals
 

Neutral Zone

Junior Member
you don't think the Indians would want Kitty hawk when it retires and buying Super hornets or rafeals

Kitty Hawk is a fine ship but it's getting on for 50 years old. By the time India could get it ready for service, and that's if America would sell, which I don't think is likely, the indigenous ships would be entering service. Those ships are meant for the Mig-29K (contract cost $740 million) and I don't think there'd be any logic in buying a CTOL aircraft to serve as an interim measure for a few years before retirement.

I'm trying to figure out how much this debacle is eventually going to cost India, according to Bharat-Rakshak.com, the ship itself was free but India had to pay between $675 to $700 million dollars for the refit. Was that the original cost or the latest estimate? If Gorshkov is as bad as that report made out then this figure is going to be well in excess of $1 billion dollars all for a pretty minimal capability gain. :nono: At least the current defence minister will be able to argue that the contract wasn't signed on his watch! :D

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harryRIEDL

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Kitty Hawk is a fine ship but it's getting on for 50 years old. By the time India could get it ready for service, and that's if America would sell, which I don't think is likely, the indigenous ships would be entering service. Those ships are meant for the Mig-29K (contract cost $740 million) and I don't think there'd be any logic in buying a CTOL aircraft to serve as an interim measure for a few years before retirement.

I'm trying to figure out how much this debacle is eventually going to cost India, according to Bharat-Rakshak.com, the ship itself was free but India had to pay between $675 to $700 million dollars for the refit. Was that the original cost or the latest estimate? If Gorshkov is as bad as that report made out then this figure is going to be well in excess of $1 billion dollars all for a pretty minimal capability gain. :nono: At least the current defence minister will be able to argue that the contract wasn't signed on his watch! :D

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do you mean loss because according to global security gorshov can carry 9 less aircraft than hermes
and on the same site it claims an air group of 37 for hermes 30 sea harriers 7 sea kings
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also why did they keep the elevator by the island right in the center right on the flight line of both the launch and the recovery areashttp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/r-vikramaditya-schem.htm but seeing how this projects going they properly couldn't change it.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
do you mean loss because according to global security gorshov can carry 9 less aircraft than hermes
and on the same site it claims an air group of 37 for hermes 30 sea harriers 7 sea kings
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also why did they keep the elevator by the island right in the center right on the flight line of both the launch and the recovery areashttp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/r-vikramaditya-schem.htm but seeing how this projects going they properly couldn't change it.

Sea Harriers are not as capable as MiG-29K's...
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Too bad the Indians got "Jacked" by the Russians...Three years is a long time..Much will change.

Too bad the US would not sell off a Tarawa class to the IN...Modified and re-fit with a full SLEP of course as we have in the past suggest.
 

Neutral Zone

Junior Member
One has the ability to carry more weapons and identify and engage targets at a farther range, the other doesn't.

There's no doubt that a Mig-29K with full PGM and BVR capability is a far better aircraft than the first generation Shar's that India currently operates, so Vikramaditya will by default, be a more capable ship than Viraat. It remains to be seen if Vikramaditya will be able to operate the Fulcrum to it's full potential as neither ship nor aircraft were originally intended to operate with each other. It's when you compare Vikramaditya to the indigenous Vikrant class carriers that you see the difference. Here are the comparisons based on information on Jeff Head's website
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INS Vikrant, Scheduled in service date 2012.
Length: 830 ft
Width: 190 ft
Beam: 116 ft
Displacement: 40,000 tons
Propulsion: 4 LM 2500 gas turbines,
2 shafts
Speed: 28 knots
Crew: 1,600
Airwing: 30 Fixed, rotary
Armament:
- 2 X 16 VLS SAM
- 4 X 76mm guns
Elevators: 2

INS Vikramaditya, Scheduled in service date :confused:
Length: 900 ft
Width: 174 ft
Beam: 107 ft
Displacement: 45,000 tons
Propulsion: 8 turbo pressurized boilers,
4 shafts
Speed: 32 knots
Crew: 1,600
Airwing: 30 fixed, rotary
Armament:
Uknown
Elevators: 2

With the Vikrant's India will be getting a slightly smaller carrier, purpose designed for STOBAR, that should be able to operate the Mig-29K to it's full potential and can carry the same number of aircraft. Vikrant will be powered by the proven GE gas turbines where as Vikramaditya will probably have a modified version of the original Kiev class machinery which had a poor reliability record. To be fair to Vikramaditya, it was due to have been in service several years ago and was probably only ever intended to be an interim ship to give the IN STOBAR experience, but now they'll be entering service at roughly the same time and there's no doubt in my mid which ship I'd take.
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
With the Vikrant's India will be getting a slightly smaller carrier, purpose designed for STOBAR, that should be able to operate the Mig-29K to it's full potential and can carry the same number of aircraft. Vikrant will be powered by the proven GE gas turbines where as Vikramaditya will probably have a modified version of the original Kiev class machinery which had a poor reliability record. To be fair to Vikramaditya, it was due to have been in service several years ago and was probably only ever intended to be an interim ship to give the IN STOBAR experience, but now they'll be entering service at roughly the same time and there's no doubt in my mid which ship I'd take.

All the more reason to take the hit, write off the Gorshkov, and build a third new carrier in India. Gorshkov will be lucky if it last 15-20 years in service, maybe less, if it's ever delivered. A third new carrier will last twice that, and infrastructure, maintenance, and training costs will be much eased by having three identical ships. Besides, it would be a much better ship than the Gorshkov.
 
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