Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
I see Obi Wan's point clearly.."Let's just get the darn ship built first".."Then we can modify her"....Don't give those stupid politicians any ideas they can argue about.

Exactly. Once the ships are well under way the debate about their air groups can really begin, including returning control of Naval aviation back to the Navy where it belongs. I've always thought the big stumbling block to getting carriers built is it's a two part descision; ships and aircraft. Well we have the ships sorted now for the aircraft. If we can get out of Tranche 3 of the Typhoon deal (slim chance I know) then the money saved can be diverted to remedying both the RAF's shortfalls elsewhere and consolidating the F-35 orders, increasing the numbers in Navy hands (including the numbers of sqns, two is insufficient). In the meantime, here's hoping for type 45 nos 7 & 8!
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
If we can get out of Tranche 3 of the Typhoon deal (slim chance I know) then the money saved can be diverted to remedying both the RAF's shortfalls elsewhere and consolidating the F-35 orders, increasing the numbers in Navy hands (including the numbers of sqns, two is insufficient).

I would hope that 4 full squadrons could be established..But perhaps a minimum of three will be suffiencent.

The F-35 needs to be part of the RN FAA..period...Maybe Obi Wan can use a Jedi mind trick to get those F-35's in the hands of the RN FAA...:D
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
I believe that on another thread in this forum FuManChu said in the last day or so that the Government considered that the 3rd tranche (88 in quantity) of Typhoons were now seriously in doubt. This may open up some fiscal breathing room for improvements to QE's and PW's air groups, and especially E-2D of course.

The big thing that will be missing from everyone's air groups though, are fixed wing ASW aircraft, and ASW helos are no replacement for them. I understand that budget cuts resulted in the cancellation of the CSA for the US Navy, but I still don't understand how any navy with carriers, especially the Royal Navy with its long-standing emphasis on ASW operations, can expect to ward off subs with long-range anti-ship cruise missiles with just helicopters, they just don't have the range and endurance needed to keep those subs at a really safe distance.
 
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Scratch

Captain
Obi Wan, regarding the "fitted for thing", I think I read part of the differences of the PA2 in design (bigger / heavier) comes from the need to install those two C13-2 cats and corresponding gear like boilers. And that is more than just the deck part. Now does that differance only come from the things being installed, or from a different design that allows those installments?
And, what cats would the RN install on that CVFs?
With all the interest in the -35B (USMC, SpN, ItN) I doubt it might fail. You'll have to hope your gvnt will make up that decission themeselves, without being forced to buy the C version.
Anyway, with the numbers planed, I fear the CVFs will generally sail with a complement significantly below their capability.

BTW any latest development news on the PA2?

edit: tranche 3 is not necessarily in doubt, but the four gvnt asked industry to provide detailed cost plans for the tranche 3 with the option of reducing overall numbers.
That may save some money for some more JSFs, but additional E-2D?

Well, generally if EF are to be replaced by JSFs the A or C version should be the joice.
 
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Neutral Zone

Junior Member
At the moment it is the STOVL design, but it could be changed to CTOL quite late in the day as the ships are 'adaptable', and are to be 'fitted for but not with' catapults and arrestor gear. As the flight deck is the last part of the ship to be built any descision change can be left til quite late in the day so it dependes on how the F-35B progresses. Should it fail, then the F-35C will be the next best choice before Rafale enters the picture. A switch to CTOL will make the E-2D the natural choice for MASC, but the extra manpower to operate and maintain the cats and wires will push up both the buying price and the running costs, though not massively or prohibitively.:nono: :D

Going CATOBAR also means retraining all the FAA pilot's to give them carrier qualification and it means throwing away the near 30 years of STOVL experience that the RN has. It was not it's first choice, but the RN has probably done more than any other service to vindicate the STOVL concept and they're very good at operating it! Aircraft such as the F-35B and the possible AEW Osprey should be the equal of any land based equivalent. For me, the key thing is not the operating mode but it's the numbers, available weapons and the escorts that count. In an ideal scenario by 2020, the RN will be able to have one carrier group with up to 36 F-35's capable of carrying Storm Shadow LACM's escorted by T45's and Astute's all carrying TacTom..

Well we can dream can't we? :D
 

Tasman

Junior Member
I would hope that 4 full squadrons could be established..But perhaps a minimum of three will be suffiencent.

The F-35 needs to be part of the RN FAA..period...Maybe Obi Wan can use a Jedi mind trick to get those F-35's in the hands of the RN FAA...:D

Four FAA squadrons would be ideal, enabling each ship to operate with up to 24 F-35s as a standard complement. RAF F-35s could boost numbers during surge operations.

BTW, I agree completely that the immediate priority is to get the ship construction well underway before starting a debate about STOVL or CTOL or re the number of F-35s to be finally ordered. Once the carriers are both well into their construction period the benefits of CTOL can be actively investigated. By then we should also know whether the F-35B is able to meet its specifications. That will also be the appropriate time for the RN to campaign hard to restore the fixed wing FAA to the point where it will be capable of being fully responsible for the makeup of the airgroups other than during surge situations during crisis or wartime operations.

Cheers
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Four FAA squadrons would be ideal, enabling each ship to operate with up to 24 F-35s as a standard complement. RAF F-35s could boost numbers during surge operations.

BTW, I agree completely that the immediate priority is to get the ship construction well underway before starting a debate about STOVL or CTOL or re the number of F-35s to be finally ordered. Once the carriers are both well into their construction period the benefits of CTOL can be actively investigated. By then we should also know whether the F-35B is able to meet its specifications. That will also be the appropriate time for the RN to campaign hard to restore the fixed wing FAA to the point where it will be capable of being fully responsible for the makeup of the airgroups other than during surge situations during crisis or wartime operations.

Cheers

I think it would be prudent in the next few years to start passing FAA officers through the USN training program for CTOL aircraft so that a pool of trained pilots is built up in case a switch to the F-35C is needed. Large numbers aren't required initially, but certainly a core from the OCU and the frontline sqns would be wise. This would counter those who try to dismiss the ides that we could switch to CTOL because it would mean retraining the WHOLE of the FAA FJ sqns. Well, we'll have to retrain them all anyway in a few years when the F-35 enters service, so adding CTOL ops the syllabus might not be such a huge addition to the task.

As to Four sqns, I'd like to see 899 NAS return along with another 89' numberplate, either 892 or 893. During the fifties and sixties the FAA sqn numbers evolved a system whereby the mission of the aircraft assigned could be deduced by the number, ie 700 series were second line and 800 were frontline (instituted in the 30s), 80x became strike sqns, 81x and 82x became ASW, 83x became EW (only one sqn 831 was used), 84x became caommando troop transport (with the notable exception of 849, the Navy's sole AEW sqn), and 89x became fighter sqns. The choice of 800 and 801 for the two frontline SHAR sqns is somewhat anomolous in this respect, perhaps reflectng the thought that they would be used as the Navies sole strike aircraft with fighterrole secondary (the opposite of the stated mission in the 70s and 80s) ro perhaps the RN was just staking out the edges of the sqn numbering scheme, with 899 as the HQ sqn at the other end of the range. If we had two 80xs and two 89xs then perhaps we could return to the old system, with the former specialising in strike and the latter specialising in Air defence, although both would also practice each others missions too as required.
 

Tasman

Junior Member
I think it would be prudent in the next few years to start passing FAA officers through the USN training program for CTOL aircraft so that a pool of trained pilots is built up in case a switch to the F-35C is needed. Large numbers aren't required initially, but certainly a core from the OCU and the frontline sqns would be wise. This would counter those who try to dismiss the ides that we could switch to CTOL because it would mean retraining the WHOLE of the FAA FJ sqns. Well, we'll have to retrain them all anyway in a few years when the F-35 enters service, so adding CTOL ops the syllabus might not be such a huge addition to the task.

This seems to be a sensible idea. I believe that the RN will need to manage its pilots carefully over the next few years to safeguard against moves to transfer all fixed wing operations from the FAA to the RAF. In Australia we have seen the demise of all fixed wing flying by the RAN's FAA, largely as a result, IMO, of a persistent campaign by the RAAF who never really accepted the existence of a naval air arm. Since then promises that the RAAF would provide fixed wing air cover for the fleet have never, IMO, been adequately met. The RN must do everything it can to ensure that it retains direct control of its fighter and strike aircraft. I have no problem with the idea of the FAA being supplemented by the RAF for specific missions in wartime but relying on the use of RAF aircraft as part of the 'normal' airgroup is not a good idea, IMO, as there is no guarantee that they would always be available to meet naval needs.

As to Four sqns, I'd like to see 899 NAS return along with another 89' numberplate, either 892 or 893. During the fifties and sixties the FAA sqn numbers evolved a system whereby the mission of the aircraft assigned could be deduced by the number, ie 700 series were second line and 800 were frontline (instituted in the 30s), 80x became strike sqns, 81x and 82x became ASW, 83x became EW (only one sqn 831 was used), 84x became caommando troop transport (with the notable exception of 849, the Navy's sole AEW sqn), and 89x became fighter sqns. The choice of 800 and 801 for the two frontline SHAR sqns is somewhat anomolous in this respect, perhaps reflectng the thought that they would be used as the Navies sole strike aircraft with fighterrole secondary (the opposite of the stated mission in the 70s and 80s) ro perhaps the RN was just staking out the edges of the sqn numbering scheme, with 899 as the HQ sqn at the other end of the range. If we had two 80xs and two 89xs then perhaps we could return to the old system, with the former specialising in strike and the latter specialising in Air defence, although both would also practice each others missions too as required.

I would strongly support maintaining the traditional links between squadron numbers and roles. Interestingly the RAN inherited its FAA squadron numbers from the RN. Hence 805 and 808 squadron flew in the strike role whilst 816 and 817 flew in the ASW role. The RAN also used 700 series numbers for second line units. I'd love to see the return of 805 and 808 squadrons with the F-35B but I think that is a pipe dream!

Cheers
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
I found these great pics of HMS Illustrious operating with CVN-75 & CVN-69

ATLANTIC OCEAN (July 29, 2007) - Nimitz-class aircraft carriers USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69), USS Harry S. Truman (CVN 75) transit in formation with the Royal Navy's Invincible-class aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious (R 06) in the Atlantic Ocean. The three carriers are currently participating in Operation Bold Step where more than 15,000 service members from three countries partake in the Joint Task Force Exercise (JTFX). U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Jay C. Pugh (RELEASED)
 

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harryRIEDL

New Member
I think it would be prudent in the next few years to start passing FAA officers through the USN training program for CTOL aircraft so that a pool of trained pilots is built up in case a switch to the F-35C is needed. Large numbers aren't required initially, but certainly a core from the OCU and the frontline sqns would be wise. This would counter those who try to dismiss the ides that we could switch to CTOL because it would mean retraining the WHOLE of the FAA FJ sqns. Well, we'll have to retrain them all anyway in a few years when the F-35 enters service, so adding CTOL ops the syllabus might not be such a huge addition to the task.

As to Four sqns, I'd like to see 899 NAS return along with another 89' numberplate, either 892 or 893. During the fifties and sixties the FAA sqn numbers evolved a system whereby the mission of the aircraft assigned could be deduced by the number, ie 700 series were second line and 800 were frontline (instituted in the 30s), 80x became strike sqns, 81x and 82x became ASW, 83x became EW (only one sqn 831 was used), 84x became caommando troop transport (with the notable exception of 849, the Navy's sole AEW sqn), and 89x became fighter sqns. The choice of 800 and 801 for the two frontline SHAR sqns is somewhat anomolous in this respect, perhaps reflectng the thought that they would be used as the Navies sole strike aircraft with fighterrole secondary (the opposite of the stated mission in the 70s and 80s) ro perhaps the RN was just staking out the edges of the sqn numbering scheme, with 899 as the HQ sqn at the other end of the range. If we had two 80xs and two 89xs then perhaps we could return to the old system, with the former specialising in strike and the latter specialising in Air defence, although both would also practice each others missions too as required.

do you know what happen to 700Z squadron and would it be available to be a F35B squadron also i think most of the planes will go to the navy the RAF do have the typhoon and the navy believes [well the ones iv's spoken to] that the RAF-FAA relationship will change
 
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