Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Tasman

Tasman

Junior Member
Obi Wan Russell said:
Where it says "40 years service" and "40 aircraft" read 50 years and 50 aircraft. That is what they are designed for, though whether they last that long or carry that many is another matter.
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What I would now like to see is at least a 50% increase in the number of F-35Bs ordered so that the RN can operate each carrier to its potential. I understand that the normal peacetime complement is likely to be just 2 squadrons with 24 F-35Bs but capacity would allow for at least three squadrons apiece.

In the short term, however, I am very pleased with what has been approved.

Cheers
 
H

harryRIEDL

New Member
Tasman said:
What I would now like to see is at least a 50% increase in the number of F-35Bs ordered so that the RN can operate each carrier to its potential. I understand that the normal peacetime complement is likely to be just 2 squadrons with 24 F-35Bs but capacity would allow for at least three squadrons apiece.

In the short term, however, I am very pleased with what has been approved.

Cheers
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we are talking a minimum of 138 aircraft ordered all of which can be carried on the QE class.
It would be nice to bump up the orders to 150-200 but 138 would allow a surge of 60 aircraft on both carriers simultaneously and leave 18 aircrafts for training.

how often do you need 120 stealth supersonic:D fighters ;)
 
Tasman

Tasman

Junior Member
harryRIEDL said:
we are talking a minimum of 138 aircraft ordered all of which can be carried on the QE class.
It would be nice to bump up the orders to 150-200 but 138 would allow a surge of 60 aircraft on both carriers simultaneously and leave 18 aircrafts for training.

how often do you need 120 stealth supersonic:D fighters ;)
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3 squadrons of 12 aircraft on each carrier would mean that just over half of the total F-35 force would be deployed if 3 squadrons were embarked instead of 2. Past experience, however, suggests that only around 40% of the FAA's combat aircraft are usually able to be maintained at sea on a regular basis. The rigours and wear and tear on aircraft operated at sea is perhaps a major reason for this. The need for the aircraft to serve for a long period with the FAA, and therefore have their flight hours limited, would certainly be another. Hopefully the F-35B may prove far better than earlier FAA fighters like the F-4 Phantom II (maximum of 12 deployed on Ark Royal out of 28 in inventory) in this regard. I guess this is the reason for only 2 squadrons being planned for each carrier. My point is that I would like 3 squadrons on each carrier to be the norm.

Cheers
 
H

harryRIEDL

New Member
Tasman said:
3 squadrons of 12 aircraft on each carrier would mean that just over half of the total F-35 force would be deployed if 3 squadrons were embarked instead of 2. Past experience, however, suggests that only around 40% of the FAA's combat aircraft are usually able to be maintained at sea on a regular basis. The rigours and wear and tear on aircraft operated at sea is perhaps a major reason for this. The need for the aircraft to serve for a long period with the FAA, and therefore have their flight hours limited, would certainly be another. Hopefully the F-35B may prove far better than earlier FAA fighters like the F-4 Phantom II (maximum of 12 deployed on Ark Royal out of 28 in inventory) in this regard. I guess this is the reason for only 2 squadrons being planned for each carrier. My point is that I would like 3 squadrons on each carrier to be the norm.

Cheers
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the air group is listed at 40 aircraft for the carriers with 138 frames this should be easy as its rare that both carriers will be at sea
 
Tasman

Tasman

Junior Member
harryRIEDL said:
the air group is listed at 40 aircraft for the carriers with 138 frames this should be easy as its rare that both carriers will be at sea
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It is no doubt true that it will not often be the case that both carriers will deploy at sea at the same time.

40 is the max number of aircraft, including helos in the final design. This is less than the 46 planned earlier in the design process so I accept that my concept of 36 F-35Bs as a normal complement is too high. If all 138 JSFs are finally ordered and all are of the F-35B version, the number will probably be sufficient.

Have a look at Beedall's Navy Matters site for what is the likely composition of the CVF air groups and the likely total F-35B order:

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Let's make sure that sufficient (whatever that is) are ordered to enable a reasonable airgroup to be carried. The idea of the CVFs sailing around with a 'normal peacetime' airgroup of just 9-12 x F-35Bs, 6 x Merlins and 4x MASC helos seems a wasteful use of such potentially powerful ships. It is apparently planned to embark an additional F-35B squadron for major exercises every second year but surely at least 2 squadrons should be the norm.

The planned complements are believed to be:

Peacetime
F-35B x 9-12
Merlin x 6
MASC x 4

Major Exercises/Crisis
F-35B x 18-24
Merlin x 6
MASC x 4

Wartime Strike
F-35B x 36
MASC x 4

or

Wartime General Purpose
F-35B x 30
Merlin x 6
MASC x 4

An alternate LPH complement could be:

18 x Medium lift transport helicopters (Merlin HC.3 / FRC);
6 x Heavy lift transport helicopters (Chinook HC.2 / FRC);
6 x WAH-64 attack helicopters;
4 x Maritime Airborne Surveillance and Control
aircraft/helicopters/UAV's


Cheers
 
Last edited:
H

harryRIEDL

New Member
Tasman said:
It is no doubt true that it will not often be the case that both carriers will deploy at sea at the same time.

40 is the max number of aircraft, including helos in the final design. This is less than the 46 planned earlier in the design process so I accept that my concept of 36 F-35Bs as a normal complement is too high. If all 138 JSFs are finally ordered and all are of the F-35B version, the number will probably be sufficient.

Have a look at Beedall's Navy Matters site for what is the likely composition of the CVF air groups and the likely total F-35B order:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Let's make sure that sufficient (whatever that is) are ordered to enable a reasonable airgroup to be carried. The idea of the CVFs sailing around with a 'normal peacetime' airgroup of just 9-12 x F-35Bs, 6 x Merlins and 4x MASC helos seems a wasteful use of such potentially powerful ships. It is apparently planned to embark an additional F-35B squadron for major exercises every second year but surely at least 2 squadrons should be the norm.

The planned complements are believed to be:

Peacetime
F-35B x 9-12
Merlin x 6
MASC x 4

Major Exercises/Crisis
F-35B x 18-24
Merlin x 6
MASC x 4

Wartime Strike
F-35B x 36
MASC x 4

or

Wartime General Purpose
F-35B x 30
Merlin x 6
MASC x 4

An alternate LPH complement could be:

18 x Medium lift transport helicopters (Merlin HC.3 / FRC);
6 x Heavy lift transport helicopters (Chinook HC.2 / FRC);
6 x WAH-64 attack helicopters;
4 x Maritime Airborne Surveillance and Control
aircraft/helicopters/UAV's


Cheers
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interesting but the 40 number was pulled out of what the main media [bbc ] which show images of 40 F35B and mention 4 extra helos to go with F35B but it could properly be surged to more.

the implication that they will be sailing with 10-12 f35b i have only heard that from Beddeles and i am working on the assumption that the standard air group will be 40 airframes [the RN recently has a way of proving the cynics wrong] and think it could be surged to 60 airframe working on the 1 plane per 1,000 tons.

but this is all speculation till the sea trials when they will test the ships ability to carry F35B in quaninity
 
Tasman

Tasman

Junior Member
harryRIEDL said:
interesting but the 40 number was pulled out of what the main media [bbc ] which show images of 40 F35B and mention 4 extra helos to go with F35B but it could properly be surged to more.

the implication that they will be sailing with 10-12 f35b i have only heard that from Beddeles and i am working on the assumption that the standard air group will be 40 airframes [the RN recently has a way of proving the cynics wrong] and think it could be surged to 60 airframe working on the 1 plane per 1,000 tons.

but this is all speculation till the sea trials when they will test the ships ability to carry F35B in quaninity
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Personally I think Beedall's info is far more likely to be on the mark than the main media.

By increasing the number of aircraft carried in the deck park the number could no doubt be increased beyond 40. Heck, the old RAN carrier Melbourne, a 20,000 ton ship, carried 39 Sea Venoms, 22 Gannets and 2 Sycamore helos on her delivery voyage but her normal operational complement was only 22.

40 is considered by the RN as the maximum number that can be operated efficiently. The maximum that can be stored in the hangar is 24 and it is felt that more than 16 in the deck park would hamper efficient flying operations and actually reduce the operational tempo that can be sustained by the F-35Bs. 40 is not a bad sized airgroup. The last big RN carrier, the previous Ark Royal, carried just 38 on her last commission (12 Phantoms, 14 Buccaneers, 4 Gannets, 6 Sea Kings and 2 Wessex). I have not heard anyone suggest that the CVF will operate anywhere near 60 aircraft, even in surge situations.

Cheers
 
I

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
So has it been settled which CVF design the RN is going for. The CATOBAR, SToVL, or STOBAR.
 
Obi Wan Russell

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
IDonT said:
So has it been settled which CVF design the RN is going for. The CATOBAR, SToVL, or STOBAR.
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At the moment it is the STOVL design, but it could be changed to CTOL quite late in the day as the ships are 'adaptable', and are to be 'fitted for but not with' catapults and arrestor gear. As the flight deck is the last part of the ship to be built any descision change can be left til quite late in the day so it dependes on how the F-35B progresses. Should it fail, then the F-35C will be the next best choice before Rafale enters the picture. A switch to CTOL will make the E-2D the natural choice for MASC, but the extra manpower to operate and maintain the cats and wires will push up both the buying price and the running costs, though not massively or prohibitively.:nono: :D
 
bd popeye

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
I see Obi Wan's point clearly.."Let's just get the darn ship built first".."Then we can modify her"....Don't give those stupid politicians any ideas they can argue about.
 
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