Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

Mr T said:

When China bought Varyag from Ukraine, the whole point was that China had to pretend they weren't going to finish it as a warship. On the other hand, India was open about what they wanted and it made more sense to have Russia (given they designed it) to reconfigure it. Russia was going to give the ship away and just charge for the refit. Seemed look a good deal (at the time!)

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How did that work out for them? And you seriously think that if they were to do it on their own they would have a easier time?

Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

jackliu said:

It is one thing to launch a hull, it is another thing to make it operational.

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That is correct...but befre you make a hull operational, you have to have a hull. And clearly the Indians have built a very large hull there and clearly it is at some percentage complete. I believe it is self-evident that they have to complete it before they can use it. LOL!

jackliu said:

And if as you suggest it is so easy to build a carrier...

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Please show me where I ever suggested any such thing. Here's a hint for you...I didn't. Please do not put words in my mouth that were never uttered...especially to try and win some non-existant arguement.

It is very difficult to build and then operate a full sized carrier. Only a few country's in the world have ever demonstrated the capability to build one from scratch themselves and then operate it. (US, UK, French, Italy, Spain, Russia, and during World war II and before Japan). With the Hyuga, and the new 22DDH carrier coming, Japan may start again. The Koreans produced the Dokdo...but it does not qualify IMHO as a full sized aircraft crrier..

India and China do not yet...either one of them...fit into that category.

As far as one built from scratch themselves, however, Inida has in fact built what your own eyes see before you...to date, China has not.

That is not a diss on China, it's just the facts. Perhaps China's first indegenous carrier will be built and outfitted and commissioned before the Indian's finish this one...time will tell. But right now, in terms of the indegenous game, India is ahead. And that was my point. India is acquiring aircraft carrier building experience, despite the stop gap measure of the Vikramaditya. Plain and simple. No more, no less. No insult to anyone, just a simple statement of fact.

As to the Kolkatas. Yes, they have set around for far too long...but even the article you linked to indicates that next year the first will be complete...then in 2014 another, then in 2015 another. So they will have three very advanced DDGs to protect their carriers in the next three years. In that same time, with China already having six Type 052Cs, I expect China will add four Type 052Ds and will be well ahead in that category.

But, to be clear. People have known me on these boards, in some cases for many years...and they know I have never indicated or hinted that building a carrier is "an easy task," quite the contrary, I have always indicated it is about the most difficult naval building and acquisition project a nation can embark on.

Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

Jeff Head said:

That is correct...but befre you make a hull operational, you have to have a hull. And clearly the Indians have built a very large hull there and clearly it is at some percentage complete. I believe it is self-evident that they have to complete it before they can use it. LOL!

Please show me where I ever suggested any such thing. Here's a hint for you...I didn't. Please do not put words in my mouth that were never uttered...especially to try and win some non-existant arguement.

It is very difficult to build and then operate a full sized carrier. Only a few country's in the world have ever demonstrated the capability to build one from scratch themselves and then operate it. (US, UK, French, Italy, Spain, Russia, and during World war II and before Japan). With the Hyuga, and the new 22DDH carrier coming, Japan may start again. The Koreans produced the Dokdo...but it does not qualify IMHO as a full sized aircraft crrier..

India and China do not yet...either one of them...fit into that category.

As far as one built from scratch themselves, however, Inida has in fact built what your own eyes see before you...to date, China has not.

That is not a diss on China, it's just the facts. Perhaps China's first indegenous carrier will be built and outfitted and commissioned before the Indian's finish this one...time will tell. But right now, in terms of the indegenous game, India is ahead. And that was my point. India is acquiring aircraft carrier building experience, despite the stop gap measure of the Vikramaditya. Plain and simple. No more, no less. No insult to anyone, just a simple statement of fact.

As to the Kolkatas. Yes, they have set around for far too long...but even the article you linked to indicates that next year the first will be complete...then in 2014 another, then in 2015 another. So they will have three very advanced DDGs to protect their carriers in the next three years. In that same time, with China already having six Type 052Cs, I expect China will add four Type 052Ds and will be well ahead in that category.

But, to be clear. People have known me on these boards, in some cases for many years...and they know I have never indicated or hinted that building a carrier is "an easy task," quite the contrary, I have always indicated it is about the most difficult naval building and acquisition project a nation can embark on.

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And as I have show you, building a hull is probably one of the easiest step in building the carrier, Gorshkov and Varyag are all just hulls floating around, and they spend dozens times more on actually putting in the subsystems to make it work.

If you think that just because one nation can build a hull that means they are ahead is laughable. And yes, I never said you said building a carrier is easy, however you are the one that want to make it seems that just because India have a hull that means it is a big deal, that means they are ahead. Because I seriously doubt this, if you read that article that I linked, there are warships hulls in India shipyard that is rusting in the dock because they are having hard time putting the subsystems, and yes, they "promise" it will be ready in 2014 and follow by another and another, but guess what? This is NOT the first time India have over promise something which inevitably fall behind schedule. In fact I believe there have not been one Indian military project that was every on schedule, and on budget, but hey, it is your right to take their claim on the face value.

Lastly I hardly call a empty rusting hull some kind of progress, I rather see a nation that start building a ship and does not waste any downtime on it, that they would finish from beginning to end with full shift.

Also if you think China is lacking hull building ability, that is also laughable, Korea is the #1 ship producer in the world, and China is #2 in the world, so do you really think China will have a hard time producing ship hulls?

Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

jackliu said:

And as I have show you, building a hull is probably one of the easiest step in building the carrier, Gorshkov and Varyag are all just hulls floating around, and they spend dozens times more on actually putting in the subsystems to make it work.

If you think that just because one nation can build a hull that means they are ahead is laughable. And yes, I never said you said building a carrier is easy, however you are the one that want to make it seems that just because India have a hull that means it is a big deal, that means they are ahead. Because I seriously doubt this, if you read that article that I linked, there are warships hulls in India shipyard that is rusting in the dock because they are having hard time putting the subsystems, and yes, they "promise" it will be ready in 2014 and follow by another and another, but guess what? This is NOT the first time India have over promise something which inevitably fall behind schedule. In fact I believe there have not been one Indian military project that was every on schedule, and on budget, but hey, it is your right to take their claim on the face value.

Lastly I hardly call a empty rusting hull some kind of progress, I rather see a nation that start building a ship and does not waste any downtime on it, that they would finish from beginning to end with full shift.

Also if you think China is lacking hull building ability, that is also laughable, Korea is the #1 ship producer in the world, and China is #2 in the world, so do you really think China will have a hard time producing ship hulls?

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Hey Jr., how about showing the Headmaster some respect, he's without a doubt the nicest, kindest, most fair minded MAN on this forum, so why don't you apologize like a big boy, and no one on this forum has been more supportive of the Chinese Navy's efforts to float this carrier and updated this thread on her progress like a kid at Christmas. Sooo! why don't you play nice, and maybe you'll earn a thimblefull of the respect the rest of us hold for Jeff?

Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

Air Force Brat said:

Hey Jr., how about showing the Headmaster some respect, he's without a doubt the nicest, kindest, most fair minded MAN on this forum, so why don't you apologize like a big boy, and no one on this forum has been more supportive of the Chinese Navy's efforts to float this carrier and updated this thread on her progress like a kid at Christmas. Sooo! why don't you play nice, and maybe you'll earn a thimblefull of the respect the rest of us hold for Jeff?

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If you want to argue, argue with me on facts, don't throw that "MAN" stuff there, as if it make any difference, go ahead, break down each of my arguments, support it with your own evidence and we'll talk.

Otherwise, just because a nation can build a ship hull and make it rusting in the ocean, I do not assume they can build a carrier.

Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

jackliu said:

If you want to argue, argue with me on facts, don't throw that "MAN" stuff there, as if it make any difference, go ahead, break down each of my arguments, support it with your own evidence and we'll talk.

Otherwise, just because a nation can build a ship hull and make it rusting in the ocean, I do not assume they can build a carrier.

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Brother you can argue all the points you like, but just don't be a jerk about it, that's all we're trying to say.

Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

Equation said:

Brother you can argue all the points you like, but just don't be a jerk about it, that's all we're trying to say.

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You calling me a jerk? How is that I am a jerk? Where did I ever personally attack anyone?

But it seems to me you calling me a jerk, you have just did personal attack against me, and if I recall this is not allowed on this forum.

Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

jackliu said:

You calling me a jerk? How is that I am a jerk? Where did I ever personally attack anyone?

But it seems to me you calling me a jerk, you have just did personal attack against me, and if I recall this is not allowed on this forum.

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You're in arguments with too many people If it's just one of two arguments then it's understandable, but when you're arguing with everyone, then you have to look at what's wrong with yourself.

Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

jackliu said:

You calling me a jerk? How is that I am a jerk? Where did I ever personally attack anyone?

But it seems to me you calling me a jerk, you have just did personal attack against me, and if I recall this is not allowed on this forum.

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Yes..I called you a jerk (rolling eyes)...WHAAAA...WAAAAHHH...deal with it! Life isn't always about feeling right all the time in a forum!

Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

Ok gentelemen that's enough. Knock off the silly arguments, name calling whining etc.. and get back on topic. In case you were wondering..

H) Topics to compare Indian defense against Chinese defense or any India Vs China discussion are not allowed in this Forum!!!!

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STOP the PLAN ,Indian Navy CV comparison. Any India Vs China comparison leads to flames.

So if you want to discuss the PLAN CV use that thread. Any more India Vs China discussion will be deleted. Penalties may ensue.

DO NOT quote or respond to this post.



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