Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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joshuatree

Captain
Hendrik_2000 said:
Exactly Adding insult to injury now they demand more money too . Really the bear is milking the cash cow like there is no tomorrow
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All around I think this carrier deal for India is just plain bad. However, was the boiler lining issue caused by the Russians or the Indians? Did the Indians specifically spec'ed out the insufficient lining? Did the Russians warn the Indians about the potential inadequacy and the Indians overrode? This boils down to simple Project Management 101, who signed off, and who waived/not waived the liability.
 
J

jackliu

Banned Idiot
asif iqbal said:
Doing business with Russia is a dirty business, that's why hardly any oil and gas company's even venture there, every time here is a disagreement with Ukarine they cut the gas pipeline in the middle of winter

They did the same to China with the IL-76 and 78 deal and China just walked away which has turned out better for China

Unfortunately for India they have put so much money into these projects and they desperately want a return and then end up putting more money down Russia

But you have to give it to China though, they not only out smarted the Russians they competely out classed them on this casino deal on Varyag, I bet there are some in Russia who are in despair and absolute shock and horror over what Varayg had become they could not have imagined in their wildest dreams! Go China
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They scammed the scammers lol, same thing goes for the Su-33 deal, I read it was almost through the door, until Russia discovered that China had one of the Su-33 prototypes, then Russian throw a temper tantrum and negotiation broke down, so China developed the J-16 instead.

I think China was very much planning to purchase Su-33 originally, and if they did, the plane would be ready for Varayg by now, however it look like it will be delayed for about 5 years, but in exchange I'm sure they have learned many valuable lessons on their own towards developing future carrier jets.

I guess everyone have it is faults, Russians are extortionist, Chinese are reverse engineers.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Hendrik_2000 said:
Exactly Adding insult to injury now they demand more money too . Really the bear is milking the cash cow like there is no tomorrow


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Russia to demand more money to fix INS Vikramaditya


Published September 20, 2012 | By admin


SOURCE: EXPRESS NEWS SOURCE


The memory of the steep price escalation by Russians for the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov was still fresh in the memories of Indian defence authorities, and the latest snags experienced during the trials of the flat top carrier indicates that Moscow will up the price for warship once more.

The issue is expected to be at the forefront when Russian Defence Minister Anatoly E Serdyukov visits Sources informed The New Indian building up case for another price hike for the second traditional asbestos coating and would therefore claim more in the name of dry dock maintenance,” added the sources.

The Indian Navy’s aim to operate two functional aircraft carriers at a given time suffered a second setback when after 90 days of sailing in the Barent Sea seven of the eight boilers of the warship did not function at its maximum power limit. According to the widely read Russian daily “Kommersant”, the seven boilers were damaged during the trial delaying the delivery of the warship by a year.

The Indian Navy, however, contended that the contract provides for leeway of 3-4 months in case of delay in delivery but beyond that the provisions call for imposing penalty if its delayed beyond it.

The acquisition of Admiral Gorshkov has been full of the price escalation saga. Offered as a gift to the Indian Navy in the beginning, the Russians had used the warship to arm-twist the Indian government to cough up more money that was used to bail out the cash-strapped Sevmash shipyard. The contract was signed in 2004 for a project hit the headlines in 2007 when Russia said that it will not be able to meet its initial deadline of 2008 and pushed it back to 2010 and demanded upped the price to $2.9 billion. After years of strenuous price re-negotiations the deal was re-inked at $2.33 billion in 2010 and December 2012 was fixed as the delivery time.

However, the recent development indicates that the leviathan is going to miss its deadline once again.
Earlier, the indigenous aircraft carrier project suffered a two years delay when truck carrying important equipment met an accident. Both the aircraft carrier are crucial for the Indian Navy’s policy to gain maritime advantage in the Indian Ocean Region – spread from Gulf of Aden in the east to Malacca Strait in the west – as the force envisages to have one aircraft carrier each for its two coasts.
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How much more are they asking from the Indians to have this carrier complete and ready to go? Surely a boiler couldn't take that long to replace does it?
 
MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
Some netizens in China laughed that Russians must be enjoying their payback against India...back in the day after USSR collapsed, Russian rubles crashed and turned into "hell money" (if you're Chinese you should be familiar with this), so India took advantage of the situation by repaying its debt in rubles.

And now, the Russians made India into their ATM...wonder when'd India learn.
 
F

Franklin

Captain
The source for the article posted by Hendrik_2000 is a blog its nothing more than the personal opinion of the writer there is nothing official yet. The INS Vikramaditya is still on sea trial and now is sailing on the remaining 5 boilers and will return to dock somewhere in mid october. That is when they will make a assessment of the damage and only then will decisions be taken.

Here is a interesting story a senior Admiral in the Indian Navy that was involved in the Vikramaditya procurement was in a relationship with a Russian woman at the time. A honey trap was suggested but there was no evidence found. Despite the lack of evidence the Admiral was releaved of his position.

Other military officers have also been caught in reported honey traps in recent years. The Navy, for instance, last year sacked Commodore Sukhjinder Singh after his sexually explicit pictures with a Russian woman had surfaced. Singh was posted in Moscow as part of the Indian negotiating team for the acquisition of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov (now rechristened INS Vikramaditya), for which India finally agreed to pay $2.33 billion after protracted and bitter negotiations with Russia.
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Czar786

Just Hatched
Registered Member
China purchased the unfinished aircraft carrier Varyag from Ukraine at a price of US$20 million. Depending solely on its own industry and advanced ship building craft, China repaired and made improvements to the carrier. By doing so, China spent less money, accumulated experience in aircraft carrier remodeling and learned valuable lessons which will help it to construct its own carrier.

However, India and China’s paths have been different. After purchasing the Gorshkov from Russia, India chose to get it repaired in Russia because it lacked the capacity and technology to undertake such a difficult project.

More importantly, China and India are not at the same industrial level. Over the past ten years, the Chinese navy has built 16 large missile frigates and at least 10 guided-missile destroyers, as well as advanced submarines. Most of the weapons have been designed and made by China. India has started to build 6 destroyers and 6 frigates over the past 10 years, but currently only one frigate has been put into service. And it seems that the Indian navy will rely on overseas purchases in order to maintain its fleet in the future.
 
asif iqbal

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
jackliu said:
They scammed the scammers lol, same thing goes for the Su-33 deal, I read it was almost through the door, until Russia discovered that China had one of the Su-33 prototypes, then Russian throw a temper tantrum and negotiation broke down, so China developed the J-16 instead.

I think China was very much planning to purchase Su-33 originally, and if they did, the plane would be ready for Varayg by now, however it look like it will be delayed for about 5 years, but in exchange I'm sure they have learned many valuable lessons on their own towards developing future carrier jets.

I guess everyone have it is faults, Russians are extortionist, Chinese are reverse engineers.
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This this might be true to a certain extent but I don't think making J15 delayed China, judging by Russian deliverys they probably even came out faster lol

Anyhow China already has had the full scale mock up in Wuhan operating for a while now, I bet J15 have been using that facility for landings and take offs, they probably have practiced like a thousand times over

In comparison Liaoning is only being handed over as we speak, so no need to have J15 operational, what would they have done with J15 operating 5 years ago when no carrier is ready for them

I think it's timed perfectly, by the time Liaoning goes to Navy J15 will be ready in time, J15 is probably been tested and gone through a tough regime at the mock up facility so it will be more of a test for Liaoning than J15 but I wouldn't like to say

If they add a dozen J15 aircraft per year to the Liaonings air wing that would be 36 x J15 inside 3 years from start of next year which means the carrier will have full complement of air wing starting 2016, overall that is a good plan and great effort which also means ships like Type 052D will be ready also

If China 1st indigenous carrier takes 48 aircraft and the 2nd one takes 60 this would give China the capability to project 144 fighter aircraft or something like 6 x squadrons at sea, that is way more than what India or any world navy will be be to deploy

In terms of naval aircraft and their sophistication China in the coming years will win hands down only second to America
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

Here's a GREAT video of the new Queen Elizabeth construction where a 13,000 ton segment is joined to existing segments:

[video=youtube;nJU8petyQPo]http://www.youtube.com/embed/nJU8petyQPo[/video]

This is going to be a very strong carrier...if they can just get the airwing for it. The PLAN is not the only country that will launch a very strong carrier before the air wing is ready for it.
 
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asif iqbal

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

Nice video Jeff

I drive over the fourth road bridge every week and I can see that blue overhead crane at work at Rosyth dockyard it's lifts the small blocks into place onto the larger modules and the larger modules are assembled elsewhere and brought to Rosyth dockyard and connected up

The way this carrier Is built is amazing, it's just like a jigsaw coming together

Incidentally the firth of the forth has a new bridge also under construction this area is so important for entire UK so much is happening at this end, the foundations have broken the surface of the water, the down side is the traffic after work because of all the road works and closures!
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

asif iqbal said:
Nice video Jeff

I drive over the fourth road bridge every week and I can see that blue overhead crane at work at Rosyth dockyard it's lifts the small blocks into place onto the larger modules and the larger modules are assembled elsewhere and brought to Rosyth dockyard and connected up

The way this carrier Is built is amazing, it's just like a jigsaw coming together

Incidentally the firth of the forth has a new bridge also under construction this area is so important for entire UK so much is happening at this end, the foundations have broken the surface of the water, the down side is the traffic after work because of all the road works and closures!
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That must be a really neat view from the bridge! You ought to drive over there every now and then and get some pics for posting.

I do that whenever I visit US Naval Stations or construction sites.
 
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