Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

NikeX said:
Considering the Indians operate closely with western equipment I cannot believe that they went with firebrick over this material you post here
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Most likely a cost issues and/or the Russian shipyard doesn't have the know-how to process/apply such materials. Think the next thing the Russian shipyard will propose using that, but first more money to modernize the facilities...damn we can already tell where this is going.
 
cn_habs

cn_habs

Junior Member
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

MwRYum said:
Most likely a cost issues and/or the Russian shipyard doesn't have the know-how to process/apply such materials. Think the next thing the Russian shipyard will propose using that, but first more money to modernize the facilities...damn we can already tell where this is going.
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When reports of another delay on delivery of INS Vikramaditya again made headlines , idrw.org made efforts to contact it sources in different agencies , High ranked Naval official told idrw.org , Navy was divided into two groups when Russia demanded 2.35 Billion to fully complete the ship overhauling but many senior Naval officials took it has their Prestige issue and convinced MOD and GOI to agree on Russians terms .

over last few years there has been many instance where India had opportunity to pull out from this project , Aircraft carrier was first offered to India for Free and India would pay US$800 million for the upgrade and refit of the ship, as well as an additional US$1 billion for the aircraft and weapons systems.

India should have brought the ship like Chinese did and could have repaired and carried out all upgrades in Indian shipyards. Russian Sevmash shipyard which are currently carrying out all the repairs and upgrades them self did not have any technical expertise nor man power to carry out the repairs and upgrades to such a ship , so India should have been stuck to Indian shipyard , they even failed to estimate the amount of cabling needed told another Defence Expert.

Russian even blackmailed India when India was refusing to pay extra money to complete the carrier, sources told idrw.org that Russia at a point had told they will complete the carrier and Induct into their own Naval Fleet if India refuses to pay or scrap it all together.

CAG had blasted Navy for Purchasing a Second Hand ship which will have only 20 years of Sea life for 2.35 Billion dollars , it also pointed out that European shipyards could have build a new carrier for the same amount with much higher life expectancy . But many Senior Naval officials had defended their decision to stick with the Deal .

In April 2010, a scandal over the project emerged when it was announced that a Commodore had likely been blackmailed to influence the negotiations over the cost of the Gorshkov to India.Commodore Sukhjinder Singh had been a senior figure supervising the refit of the carrier, working as the principle director for the project; he was discharged from the service due to this incident.

Carrier has been already delayed by 3 years and another 1 years now.
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I wonder if that ship will actually serve for 20 full years if the Russians keep delaying this.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

Bltizo said:
As for the vikramditya getting into service before liaoning -- well if vikramditya is indeed delayed until october next year, I suspect liaoning would have been commissioned by then, and certainly I expect CV 16 to be commissioned sometime this year.
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There is no doubt but that Liaoning will commission before Vikramaditya. Liaoning will commission most probably before the end of the year...maybe yet this month. Virkam will be handed over to the Indians in December and if they were smart they would have the Russians already sail it out of the Artic beforehand so they could then take it on down to Cochin early next year. As it is, that is unlikely and it will be early next summer before Virkam reaches Indian waters.

But then the game changes because the aircraft for the first airwing on Virkam will already be in place with the Indian pilots having had lots of hours in them beforehand and with the Virkam and the Mig-29K already qualified. Production aircraft that will imediately begin training on the Vikram. I expect that the Vikram will be operational with a wing of aircraft aboard by early 2014. I do not believe the PLAN will have produced a full airwing of J-15s by 2014, much less have had them fully qualified and training on the CV-16. So I expect the PLAN will be one to two years behind the Indians in that regard...and probably the same as regards the 1st indegenous carrier progress as well.

The PLAN is well ahead in producing and using modern escorts necessary to protect the carrier, though by 2014 the INS will have them in place and operating for the Vikram.

One or two years, short of some immediate emergency, will not make a great deal of difference in the long run. Ultimatley the larger carrier with more aircraft...and, IMHO, more capable aircraft will be the more potent force.

...and, I had not heard that there is a potential delay now for Vikram until fall of next year. If that is the case, then take a full year off what I just said and the Vikram and the Liaoning may have air operational status much closer together in late 2012 to early 2015.
 
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Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

Jeff Head said:
There is no doubt but that Liaoning will commission before Vikramaditya. Liaoning will commission most probably before the end of the year...maybe yet this month. Virkam will be handed over to the Indians in December and if they were smart they would have the Russians already sail it out of the Artic beforehand so they could then take it on down to Cochin early next year. As it is, that is unlikely and it will be early next summer before Virkam reaches Indian waters.

But then the game changes because the aircraft for the first airwing on Virkam will already be in place with the Indian pilots having had lots of hours in them beforehand and with the Virkam and the Mig-29K already qualified. Production aircraft that will imediately begin training on the Vikram. I expect that the Vikram will be operational with a wing of aircraft aboard by early 2014. I do not believe the PLAN will have produced a full airwing of J-15s by 2014, much less have had them fully qualified and training on the CV-16. So I expect the PLAN will be one to two years behind the Indians in that regard...and probably the same as regards the 1st indegenous carrier progress as well.
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I suppose that really depends on liaoning's trials included testing the arrestor and landing related systems. J-15 first flew in 2009, and given its inherent similarities to flankers and SAC produced flankers I wouldn't say the idea that they have already made a few landings aboard liaoning to be unreasonable.

I mean we've seen liaoning going to see with arrestor cables onboard multiple times in the past year, they must be there for a reason.

So in that regard, I disagree with your position to a degree, in that if the PLAN have started making landings and pre training familiarization for the first batch of pilots already (either with JL-9H or J-15), there is no reason they could not embark an airwing at a similar timescale to vikram, if not earlier.

Indeed, I think that landing and taking off carriers is the easy part, that can be managed so long as the various systems are working (arrestor cables, meatball, etc) and you have a skilled pilot. It's organizing a fully functional airbase aboard a 300m long space which will be the challenge.

...and, I had not heard that there is a potential delay now for Vikram until fall of next year. If that is the case, then take a full year off what I just said and the Vikram and the Liaoning may have air operational status much closer together in late 2012 to early 2015.
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I think it was posted a page or two back. It's quite recent news, I think. Either three or seven of the vikram's boilers malfunctioned pushing handover to october 2013 I think?
We'll need to wait for it to clear up but there as been some sort of serious issue on vikram's trials.
 
cn_habs

cn_habs

Junior Member
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

Not having the savoir faire for asbestos-free propulsion insulation will undoubtedly delay the Indian CV. Now that 7/8 boilers are rendered useless I wonder if some Russian factory can come up with 7 functional boilers within a reasonable timeframe without ripping the Indians off again. The asbestos-free insulation will need to be solved as well. Only then the high speed tests/trials can be conducted again.

If the Russians give October 2013 as the new delivery date, then it won't be far fetched at all to think the Indians won't be get their hands on a fully functional carrier till beginning 2014 at the earliest.
 
N

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Note that the INS Virkamaditya has a coating of no-skid on the flight deck. As far as I can tell there is no such coating on the PLAN carrier or Russian carriers. Can anyone comment on these configurations?

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NikeX

Banned Idiot
I notice that the Indian Navy made several interesting modifications to the Virkamaditya that will assist the smooth running of flight operations. They have built a new Pri-Fly overlooking the flight deck to give better visibility of the flight deck. Its a practical touch

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no_name

Colonel
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

Another news said that only 3 or 4 of the boilers had malfunctioned upon further check. More over the incident happened in July but that the carrier can still maintain 18~20 knots for testing to continue.

I the more troubling of getting spare boilers ready would be having to rip through her deck to repair the engines and then putting everything back together, rewiring and then retest everything, etc, etc.
 
F

Franklin

Captain
Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

The latest word is that only 3 out of the 8 boilers were damaged and that the ship is now sailing at 23 knots rather than the 29 knots it was designed for. Even so the problematic fire bricks still needs to be replaced on all of the boilers, they can do that either by replacing the insolation alone or they can replace all of the 8 boilers that means months of delay. Unless India is willing to accept a seriously underpowered carrier and just take the carrier with the fire bricks insolation.
 
Geographer

Geographer

Junior Member
The Vikramaditya has been
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10 months when its boilers failed during a full power test. The Indian Navy must be cursing the people in charge of this project now. With the money they've sunk into the Vikramaditya, India could've started their own project for only a little more cost cost and time, and developed their naval building industry at the same time.

Has this already been posted? It just gets
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and worse for the Indians.
 
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