Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Engineer · Sep 17, 2012

Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

MwRYum said:
Firebrick that's not sufficiently heatproof...what on Earth were they thinking, or what kind of funny grass they were smoking?

From the story, the Russians have better sense than to use firebricks, but the idiot customer thought otherwise.

MwRYum said:
Anyway, probably the only edge that India's carrier programme can claim against China would be they've their first locally-built carrier hull while China still have yet done theirs...or the MiG29K is in production while J-15 is yet to be finalized.

The Indians' approach is to build empty hulls first, then ask questions later. There is no regard as to whether subsystems are in place before something is built. From the picture below, one can see India's aircraft carrier wasn't even topped off when it was launched. The hangar deck is completely exposed, suggesting no powerplant is in place.

It has been more than half a decade since India's Kolkata class was launched, and to this day those hulls still sit at the dock side rusting. Notice that those hulls have no funnels, because having one would get in the way of installing the powerplants.

Here are two more recent pictures:

Also, if I recall correctly India's first nuclear submarine was launched without a reactor. India has plenty of hulls in the water to satisfy national pride, yet only a few ever makes it to being operational.

Engineer · Sep 17, 2012

Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

NikeX said:
Russian shipbuilding is backwards. Them using firebrick as an insulator should surprise no-one

If you read the news, the Russians wanted to use asbestos. India thought it is smarter and suggested otherwise.

cn_habs · Sep 17, 2012

Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

Engineer said:
If you read the news, the Russians wanted to use asbestos. India thought it is smarter and suggested otherwise.

Asbestos is a well-known cause for a variety of serious health conditions including cancer. So the blame shouldn't fall on the Indians for caring about its sailors.

What material does the West and China use on their ships?

Engineer · Sep 17, 2012

Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

cn_habs said:
Asbestos is a well-known cause for a variety of serious health conditions including cancer. So the blame shouldn't fall on the Indians for caring about its sailors.

Asbestos only becomes a problem when it is disturbed. Furthermore, the INS Vikramaditya was original built around 1980 in a time where asbestos is still popular, so the boilers were likely to be designed with asbestos in mind. If that is the case then taking out asbestos means you have a system that doesn't meet specifications.

asif iqbal · Sep 17, 2012

Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

It is true that Indian shipbuilding suffers from bad management, bad organisation, sporadic work which is not consistent

On the other hand Chinese shipyards are streamlined, well rehearsed and extremely well disciplined

That's why when you look at a modern Indian shipyard and modern Chinese shipyard you can see the difference

Jeff Head · Sep 17, 2012

Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

Engineer said:
Notice that those hulls have no funnels, because having one would get in the way of installing the powerplants.

Actually, in this picture (which is the newest pictuire of the ones you posted) if you look at the middle vessel and the one to the right, they do have their funnels in place.

Engineer said:
Here are two more recent pictures:

Actually, these are older pictures than the one above it. You can see them side by side with no radars installed here on two hulls...while the above picture there are at three different hulls in three places, two of them with their radars and stacks, while the third, to the left, still has no radars outfitted and no stack.

The Indians are proceeding outfitting the Kolkatas. They will be very decent vessels. I would not underestimate the Indians any more than you want anyone to under estimate the PLAN.

They have launched an indegenous carrier hull, over a year ago. And they are working towrds it being commissioned in the 2016 time frame. Clearly they have made decent progress on that vessel and intend to commission it. They started their second IAC in August of this year...so it too is now under construction.

The PLAN has launched the Liaoning and it is looking very good...but its aircraft are not ready for it. Mig-29K aircraft are already landing on and performing qulaification on the Vikramaditya which will be handed over to the Indians in December.

[video=youtube;VKm1OEcncek]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKm1OEcncek[/video]

So the Indians will have an operaitonal STOBAR carrier first, even though it was launched second.

This does not make the Liaoning bad...it is just the way the schedules and aircraft building programs are working out.

I would not say that the IAC or the Kolkatas are bad either as I expect they will have that 1st IAC completed and ready for its Mig-29Ks before the PLAN completes their first indegenous carrier too.

Now, I also expect that once the Liaoning and the PLAN indegenous carrier are completed that they will be more capable vessels because they will carry more aircraft, and because I believe the J-15 (which is an modernized SU-33) will be a more capable aircraft than the Mig-29K...though what the Indians will have out there with their Kolkata DDGs, their Shival FFGs and their carriers will still be very potent and modern carrier groupings and not to be trivialized or underestimated.

Pointblank · Sep 17, 2012

Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

cn_habs said:
Asbestos is a well-known cause for a variety of serious health conditions including cancer. So the blame shouldn't fall on the Indians for caring about its sailors.

What material does the West and China use on their ships?

For NATO countries, reference MIL-STD-769F as the applicable NATO standard for ship machinery and piping insulation.

The current replacement is a special ceramic wool. Goes by the trade name of Kaowool, Cerablanket, Cerachem, and Cerachrome. They can take anywhere from 2000 degrees Celsius continuously to 2400 degrees Celsius.

NikeX · Sep 17, 2012

Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

Pointblank said:
For NATO countries, reference MIL-STD-769F as the applicable NATO standard for ship machinery and piping insulation.

The current replacement is a special ceramic wool. Goes by the trade name of Kaowool, Cerablanket, Cerachem, and Cerachrome. They can take anywhere from 2000 degrees Celsius continuously to 2400 degrees Celsius.

Considering the Indians operate closely with western equipment I cannot believe that they went with firebrick over this material you post here

Blitzo · Sep 17, 2012

Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

Jeff Head said:
Actually, in this picture (which is the newest pictuire of the ones you posted) if you look at the middle vessel and the one to the right, they do have their funnels in place.

Actually, these are older pictures than the one above it. You can see them side by side with no radars installed here on two hulls...while the above picture there are at three different hulls in three places, two of them with their radars and stacks, while the third, to the left, still has no radars outfitted and no stack.

The Indians are proceeding outfitting the Kolkatas. They will be very decent vessels. I would not underestimate the Indians any more than you want anyone to under estimate the PLAN.

They have launched an indegenous carrier hull, over a year ago. And they are working towrds it being commissioned in the 2016 time frame. Clearly they have made decent progress on that vessel and intend to commission it. They started their second IAC in August of this year...so it too is now under construction.

The PLAN has launched the Liaoning and it is looking very good...but its aircraft are not ready for it. Mig-29K aircraft are already landing on and performing qulaification on the Vikramaditya which will be handed over to the Indians in December.

[video=youtube;VKm1OEcncek]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKm1OEcncek[/video]

So the Indians will have an operaitonal STOBAR carrier first, even though it was launched second.

This does not make the Liaoning bad...it is just the way the schedules and aircraft building programs are working out.

I would not say that the IAC or the Kolkatas are bad either as I expect they will have that 1st IAC completed and ready for its Mig-29Ks before the PLAN completes their first indegenous carrier too.

Now, I also expect that once the Liaoning and the PLAN indegenous carrier are completed that they will be more capable vessels because they will carry more aircraft, and because I believe the J-15 (which is an modernized SU-33) will be a more capable aircraft than the Mig-29K...though what the Indians will have out there with their Kolkata DDGs, their Shival FFGs and their carriers will still be very potent and modern carrier groupings and not to be trivialized or underestimated.

I agree to some extent, but the big sticking point for me is that they have yet to demonstrate a good pace of shipbuilding.

If we just look at how long it's been since the kolkata's have been launched, or even the production rate of the shivalik frigate... It seems ridiculously slow.

That isn't to say they are not decent vessels, but if it takes nearly ten years to get 3 DDGs into service or even trials, you know you have a few problems.

As for the vikramditya getting into service before liaoning -- well if vikramditya is indeed delayed until october next year, I suspect liaoning would have been commissioned by then, and certainly I expect CV 16 to be commissioned sometime this year.

I think the only thing which may go for IN having an "operational" carrier before PLAN is whether they are able to start operating a few aircraft off the deck immediately. That is to say, has IN pilots begun to familiarize themselves with arrested landings, has the arrestor system been sufficiently tested?
The same question applies to the PLAN, and at this point there's nothing to suggest either way whether PLAN have made take offs and landings aboard CV 16.

Pointblank · Sep 17, 2012

Re: Does india really need aircraft carriers

NikeX said:
Considering the Indians operate closely with western equipment I cannot believe that they went with firebrick over this material you post here

It is more likely that the Indians specified that non-asbestos based insulation was to be used, and left the decision up to the shipyard to install a suitable replacement. Evidently, the Russians made the wrong decision, or tried to save money and it backfired.

Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Engineer

Major

Engineer

Major

cn_habs

Junior Member

Engineer

Major

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General

Jeff Head

General

Pointblank

Senior Member

NikeX

Banned Idiot

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Pointblank

Senior Member