Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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jackliu

Banned Idiot
Re: Great video of Mig-29K Air Ops on INS Virkamaditya

This is after the Chinese obtained an unfinished Su-33 prototype, the T-10K-3, from Ukraine sometime in 2001 and is said to have studied the aircraft extensively, then beginning development on the J-15 immediately afterward. The J-15 is structurally based on the Su-33, and features Chinese technologies as well as avionics from the J-11B program. J-15 is not an original piece of work

I am waiting to see how the Chinese navy handles aircraft and deck procedures on their rebuilt aircraft carrier. So far we are waiting for something to land on the boat. Maybe the Chinese are finding that there is more to carrier operations than talk?

When did I ever said J-15 is an ORIGINAL Chinese design? Only a fool would claim that China develop J-15 from a piece of paper, it does not matter where they got the protype, what matter is they can design, they can produce this 100% on their own without any outside import, that means they are self-sufficient.

What you are talking about has nothing do to with what I am talking about, if you want to complain China stealing other people's technology, go post somewhere else.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Re: Great video of Mig-29K Air Ops on INS Virkamaditya

Jackliu, do not be so defensive. I am not questioning the work or how neat it is that the PLAN was able to accomplish what they did. I have tracked it in detail for ten years, It is an amazing thing. The J-15 is going to be an amazing and good aircraft.

But do not underestimate or discount the Indians either, anymore than you would want people to discount what the PLAN has accomplished.

The Indians have actually operated two aircraft carriers for many years. The new Vikrant is delayed...but it has been floated out now at 70% complete and it will not be 2020 before it is complete. It will probabaly be completed in 2014 and commissioned in 2016-2017. My guess is that will be well before a Chinese indegenous carrier is completed, much less commissioned.

The Mig-29K is a good aircraft and it is a complete Russian design just as you say, but the Indians are building an indegenous fighter too for their carriers.

This is not about who is best. It is simply about the technology the two countries are coming out with and how and when they bring them out.

So, the Chinese launched and will commission the Liaoninng first. Good for them. It is a big carrier and will bring a lot of very strong capability to the PLAN. They do not have fighters ready for it. It is likely that the fighters will not start to arrive until mid to late next year at the earliest and it will probably be two years after that at least (about 2015) before they have a full airwing on the carrier and training up.

The Chinese are intending to build at least two indegenous carriers and probably more. My bet is that the first will be another STOBAR and the second will be CATOBAR...but we do not know because they haven't even started building them yet.

The Indians on the other hand, have spent the money and had their people in Russia as the Virkamaditya, which also ran over schedule, was completed and launched this year. It is now completing trials and will be handed over this December. But it does have aircraft ready for it and in fact the air operations are in full swing from a testing and qualification point already for that carrier when they haven't started yet (to out knowledge) on the Liaoning. Next year, the Indainas will embark a full airwing of Mig-29K fighters on their carrier and put to sea. They will beat the PLAN to that punch...plain and simple, barring any unforeseen tragedy. It does not matter where they were built, it matters that the Indians will have that capability and be able to sustain it.

It does not mean the Indaians are better than the PLAN...it just means they will have a fixed wing carrier with an airwing operating off of their carrier first.

The Indians are already 70% complete with their first indegenous carrier and they already started construction on the second last month, in August of 2012. They will complete that carrier by 2017 and probably have her commissioned by 2019 or 2020. Again, this does not make their new carrier better than the PLAN, it just means they have started building their first one long before the PLAN, and have already started building their second.

There's nothing untoward in this about the PLAN. They are methodically building up their capabilitiy and force. They have excellent FFGs and excellent DDGs to escort their carriers.

By the same token, with the new Kolkata DDGs and the new Shival FFGs, the INS also has excellent new escorts, an the PLAN is significantly out in front of the INS in this area.

So, again...no need to get defensive and act like someone is dissing the PLAN...I am not. I am just stating the facts as they sit. The Indians will have an operational STOBAR carrier with a full airwing before the PLAN. The Indians will complete their indegenous carrier and have it in operation before the PLAN as well. But the PLAN will produce both in fairly short order...a year or two in these circumstances is really nothing...and when they do, I expect they will be very high quality vessels and aircraft.

Here are some links of mine that are pretty popular about all of this:

PLAN Liaoning CV
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PLAN Lanzhou Type 052C DDG
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PLAN Type 054A FFG
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INS Virkamaditya CV
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INS Virkant CV
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INS Kolkata DDG
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I am defensive about what? You are the one that started the comparison, I merely help you to add more fact to it, and seems you agree with what I said, I guess we both have nothing in dispute.

And notice, I never actually directly contradicted what you have said, for example Indian will have fully operational carrier ready before PLAN, but what I added also does not contradict what you are saying either, that is China's work on their carrier is much more indigenous than India's carrier which is being refit inside Russia.

As for Vikrant being commission for 2016-2017, let's just say I think there will be more delays and I don't agree with this timeline base on past record, but since we are only in 2012, that means only time will tell who is correct.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Re: Great video of Mig-29K Air Ops on INS Virkamaditya

When did I ever said J-15 is an ORIGINAL Chinese design? Only a fool would claim that China develop J-15 from a piece of paper, it does not matter where they got the protype, what matter is they can design, they can produce this 100% on their own without any outside import, that means they are self-sufficient.

What you are talking about has nothing do to with what I am talking about, if you want to complain China stealing other people's technology, go post somewhere else.

In the case of the J-15 please tell me what the Chinese designed.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Great video of Mig-29K Air Ops on INS Virkamaditya

and seems you agree with what I said, I guess we both have nothing in dispute.

As for Vikrant being commission for 2016-2017, let's just say I think there will be more delays and I don't agree with this timeline base on past record, but since we are only in 2012, that means only time will tell who is correct.
If we agree...meaning not only I with you, but you with me...then fine.

But clearly that is not completely the case because of your own belief regarding the timeline of the Vikrant...which, as stated we do not agree on.

I can only go on what I have seen is her condition. Since she was launched in the following condition a year ago:

vikrant05.jpg


I'd still stand by the completed in 2014 (which would mean three years of work after that launching) and commissioned in 2016-2017. IMHO, since the new carrier stated work this year, 2020 should be closer to the commission date of their 2nd, larger, indegenious carrier...but we shall see.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Re: Great video of Mig-29K Air Ops on INS Virkamaditya

In the case of the J-15 please tell me what the Chinese designed.

Did you even READ what I typed??? I said it is NOT a Chinese design. I said that China is able to produce this jet 100% on their own without have to need to relies on any other nations. Which makes huge difference in war time when it come to repair and spare parts.

Oh and just because it is not an original Chinese design, does not make it less effective in combat, so I'll say again. If you want to complain China stealing other people's technology, go post somewhere else. There is a whole world for you to complain about.

Fact is J-15 is 100% PRODUCED within China, you got a problem with that fact?
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Re: Great video of Mig-29K Air Ops on INS Virkamaditya

If we agree...meaning not only I with you, but you with me...then fine.

But clearly that is not completely the case because of your own belief regarding the timeline of the Vikrant...which, as stated we do not agree on.

I can only go on what I have seen is her condition. Since she was launched in the following condition a year ago:

vikrant05.jpg


I'd still stand by the completed in 2014 (which would mean three years of work after that launching) and commissioned in 2016-2017. IMHO, since the new carrier stated work this year, 2020 should be closer to the commission date of their 2nd, larger, indegenious carrier...but we shall see.

Like I said, you are basing it on the official words of Indian officials, I am basing it on past experience, and like I said, only time will tell. Pointless to argue over this.

2014 is less than 2 years ago, we'll see if you are correct soon enough.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Re: Great video of Mig-29K Air Ops on INS Virkamaditya

Hi Jackliu. I respect your opinions, I agree with most of yours. But please calm down, no need to be upset or angry. A lot of members here are very respected members, especially Jeff. Please show some respects. Thank you

anyway, what we are discussing here have zero influence of what China Navy or other navies heading to ... so just enjoy it :)
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Great video of Mig-29K Air Ops on INS Virkamaditya

Like I said, you are basing it on the official words of Indian officials, I am basing it on past experience, and like I said, only time will tell. Pointless to argue over this.

2014 is less than 2 years ago, we'll see if you are correct soon enough.
Yes it is pointless...time will tell. And I think you meant to say that 2014 is two years away, not "ago".

And, Jackliu, to be clear and sure, I do not go based on what the Indian officials say alone in the least, I go based on all the things you have said, + one more...what I can see with my own eyes. The main influence for me right now is what my eyes show me with the picture of that complete hull which was launched a year ago. They have continued to work on her. That picture speaks more words than 1000 official proclamations or our own interpretation of their past activities...just as the picture of the three Kolkatas fitting out does the same regarding their Project 15 DDGs.

Anyhow, December 2014 will come quickly enough and should something happen between now and then to futher delay it, or if it does not commission in that time frame, I will be the first to admit that that date was wrong.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Great video of Mig-29K Air Ops on INS Virkamaditya

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Yep...that article is dated January 7, 2012. I believe the vessel was actually launched form the dry dock in late December 2011. They have made progress internally on her since...but I am not sure how much. BAcically, they need the bow, flight deck, and Island structurally.

On a dfferent note, the Island for the new US NAvy Ford Class Carrier is scheduled to be lowered onto the deck in November. Coming quickly. She will be launched next year.

Exciting times.
 
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