Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Jeff Head

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Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

There's plenty of other aircraft carrier business going on.

A lot of carriers are being built and a lot of experience is being gained (India - as I have clearly explained, and China included)...but the US is pretty much at the forefront.

The US is launching the1st Ford class next year and the second is already started.

The US 1st America class is already launched. and the second started.

The UK is making GREAT progress on the first Queen Elizabeth class.

The 1st Canberra class for Australia will probably be launched in 2014.

I am looking forward to seeing some pics of the JMSDF 22DDH, because they have been under construction on the first of those for almost two years so she should be well along.

The Indians have their first hull in the water, and soon the Chinese will start their own indegenous carrier building.

Lots of exciting times.
 
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Blitzo

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Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

Jackliu, jeff is only chronicling what has happened and expected to happen at this stage, rather than necessarily predicting what could or will happen with regards to the Indian carrier (and other naval acquisitions on his site, and his posts here on SDF)

I agree with you that based on previous Indian acquisitions (both naval and air force and army, and indigenous and imported), chances are there will be significant delays with the vikrant.


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Now to deviate from the whole Indian matter which has hijacked this thread...

For those with more experience in the matter than I, (jeff, Popeye, obi wan or anyone else);
We've seen china refurbish the empty hull which which was the varying, and they seem to have turned it into a functioning carrier, with all the associated electronics, power plant, recovery systems and ciws, etc you would expect. We can make a safe assumption that all the necessary equipment inside (everything from navigation to the wiring, piping, needed) is there as well, given liaoning seems to have been commissioned/handed over or is on the cusp of being handed over.
My question, drawn somewhat from jack's previous posts, is that is the integration of all these complex systems into a single ship, indicative of chinas potential to build indigenous carriers?

I also believe that building the empty hull of a large ship is relatively easy, it's integrating the systems together, whether they're the radars and weapons suites of a surface combatant, or the dozens and hundreds of electronics and pipes needed aboard a carrier, which is the difficult part.
We have evidence that china can build large hulls with all the tankers and large military vessels produced (071 is in a different class to a carrier of course, but in conjunction with the size of ships the civilian sector has been pumping out I think we can agree they have no trouble building a large hull. Especially considering other countries without such previous experience can build a hull like India has done with vikrant).

The real test will be to see how long it takes china to launch and fit out their own indigenous carrier, but at this stage, would we agree their prospects look good based on previous and recent developments?
 

MwRYum

Major
Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

For those with more experience in the matter than I, (jeff, Popeye, obi wan or anyone else);
We've seen china refurbish the empty hull which which was the varying, and they seem to have turned it into a functioning carrier, with all the associated electronics, power plant, recovery systems and ciws, etc you would expect. We can make a safe assumption that all the necessary equipment inside (everything from navigation to the wiring, piping, needed) is there as well, given liaoning seems to have been commissioned/handed over or is on the cusp of being handed over.
My question, drawn somewhat from jack's previous posts, is that is the integration of all these complex systems into a single ship, indicative of chinas potential to build indigenous carriers?

I also believe that building the empty hull of a large ship is relatively easy, it's integrating the systems together, whether they're the radars and weapons suites of a surface combatant, or the dozens and hundreds of electronics and pipes needed aboard a carrier, which is the difficult part.
We have evidence that china can build large hulls with all the tankers and large military vessels produced (071 is in a different class to a carrier of course, but in conjunction with the size of ships the civilian sector has been pumping out I think we can agree they have no trouble building a large hull. Especially considering other countries without such previous experience can build a hull like India has done with vikrant).

The real test will be to see how long it takes china to launch and fit out their own indigenous carrier, but at this stage, would we agree their prospects look good based on previous and recent developments?

Not yet.

See, India came up their own design, despite their previous experience has been Harriers and have to start from scratch with MiG-29, span from their decades of experience with carrier ops. Just look at all those who build their own carriers - every new design has as much to do with "what to do with it" as there are with experience to operate carriers itself, if not including carrier aviation.

In that regard, China has none to speak of - no large flat-top operational experience (operate 071 flight deck is not enough) nor fix-wing carrier aviation, and worse nobody willing to teach the Chinese on...well, just about all aspects. That said, the first true Chinese carrier design won't be finalized until the PLAN have spent a few years with the ex-Varyag, doing all sorts of things with it, figured out "the Chinese way" ie. what their own flavor, their requirement in terms of carrier aviation and carrier battle group; plus, being something that big (in all aspects including physically), Chinese carrier designs might not be the kind of "small-steps evolution" they use on frigates and destroyers, but big step evolution in order to make the best out of the limited resources.
 

Jeff Head

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Re: UK's Queen Elizabeth 13,000 ton segment joined

The real test will be to see how long it takes china to launch and fit out their own indigenous carrier, but at this stage, would we agree their prospects look good based on previous and recent developments?
That is the real test for anyone building an indegenouc carrier.

BTW, the hull launched by INdia for the Vikrant is not "empty". The decks are all in there and that means the innards for weapons transport from the weapons storgae to the hangar and flight decks, the fuel distribution, comms, etc., etc. All of the things they will need within that hull for carrier ops.

But, in the end, once the vessel is lauinched, how quickly they can outfit it with the electronics, sensors, weapons sytems, etc. and then of course, the aircraft and start truly operating them off the deck of their new carrier will be the key.

China is learning things now with the Lianoing with respect to all of the manuevering and deck operations...but not with the aircraft ops yet because the J-15s for the airwing are not available in production numbers yet. I am anxious to see how quickly the PLAN starts producing the J-15s in any large nyumbers. We have seent he six prototypes fro upwards of two or more years now...so I would expect initial production aircraft to come soon...unless there is a problem and they are going through a redesign. We just don;t know.

The Indians...once they get the Vikramaditya...which looks to be next summer now, and once they get the Vikrant outfiited, will already have the Mig-29Ks available to start. So they have an advantage for themselves there...but they have to have the decks to fly them off of.

I will really enjoy seeing the initial pictures of the PLAN building their first indegenous carrier, which I expect will occur in Shanghai. Hope it is soon. I check the sats pics each day...but no indication yet.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Not yet.

See, India came up their own design, despite their previous experience has been Harriers and have to start from scratch with MiG-29, span from their decades of experience with carrier ops. Just look at all those who build their own carriers - every new design has as much to do with "what to do with it" as there are with experience to operate carriers itself, if not including carrier aviation.

In that regard, China has none to speak of - no large flat-top operational experience (operate 071 flight deck is not enough) nor fix-wing carrier aviation, and worse nobody willing to teach the Chinese on...well, just about all aspects. That said, the first true Chinese carrier design won't be finalized until the PLAN have spent a few years with the ex-Varyag, doing all sorts of things with it, figured out "the Chinese way" ie. what their own flavor, their requirement in terms of carrier aviation and carrier battle group; plus, being something that big (in all aspects including physically), Chinese carrier designs might not be the kind of "small-steps evolution" they use on frigates and destroyers, but big step evolution in order to make the best out of the limited resources.

I was more talking about technical ability and capacity to build hull and integrate the necessary systems of a large, advanced ship like a carrier. In terms of doctrine and the exact type of carrier the PLAN want to build is another question nor am I asking how long it will take them to learn to operate, but I'm asking industrial ability based on what we've seen them accomplish.

That is the real test for anyone building an indegenouc carrier.

BTW, the hull launched by INdia for the Vikrant is not "empty". The decks are all in there and that means the innards for weapons transport from the weapons storgae to the hangar and flight decks, the fuel distribution, comms, etc., etc. All of the things they will need within that hull for carrier ops.

It's empty in the sense the majority of the systems still need to be fitted out, I presume? (That is the way most ships are launched these days)

But, in the end, once the vessel is lauinched, how quickly they can outfit it with the electronics, sensors, weapons sytems, etc. and then of course, the aircraft and start truly operating them off the deck of their new carrier will be the key.

My point exactly. The Indians have a knack of taking a half decade to fit out something like a destroyer or frigate -- they might turn it out differently with Vikrant, but based on past experience...

China is learning things now with the Lianoing with respect to all of the manuevering and deck operations...but not with the aircraft ops yet because the J-15s for the airwing are not available in production numbers yet. I am anxious to see how quickly the PLAN starts producing the J-15s in any large nyumbers. We have seent he six prototypes fro upwards of two or more years now...so I would expect initial production aircraft to come soon...unless there is a problem and they are going through a redesign. We just don;t know.

The Indians...once they get the Vikramaditya...which looks to be next summer now, and once they get the Vikrant outfiited, will already have the Mig-29Ks available to start. So they have an advantage for themselves there...but they have to have the decks to fly them off of.

I will really enjoy seeing the initial pictures of the PLAN building their first indegenous carrier, which I expect will occur in Shanghai. Hope it is soon. I check the sats pics each day...but no indication yet.


I'd still like your opinion, and those of others on china's industrial capability and potential to build carriers and the necessary subsystems. Doctrine, and operating proficiency aside, do we think the people's republic has all the industrial areas needed to build a varyag sized carrier fully (or near fully) indigenously? They've shown they can integrate the necessary electronics and guts of a carrier, in an especially awkward situation (fitting out an existing hull and making it work, is akin to fitting out an empty, freshly launched hull, I'd imagine -- if not more difficult), and have demonstrated the ability to build relatively large military ships, and much larger civilian ships.

They've shown they have sources for the necessary carrier related subsystems like arrestor gear, OLS, either from indigenous or foreign contractors, no one knows exactly. (The question of catapults remain). Engines are of course a question, but with Liaoning they've shown they have a source for that too.
With what we can assume to be relatively stable sources of subsystems, and demonstrations of ability with fitting out and integrating systems on liaoning and recent large ship construction, I personally think it isn't a matter of whether china "can" build a decent carrier anymore, but rather "when" they want to.
Of course, designing a ship as complex as a carrier has yet to be demonstrated, but they've studied varyag for a decade and more, and have likely made studies into such various designs for many years before hand when liu huaqing first made carrier overtures to PLAN, up to now. Design of other relatively large military ships like 071, replenishers, and complex large civilian ships will no doubt benefit the shipyard's in relevant carrier design skills.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Doctrine, and operating proficiency aside, do we think the people's republic has all the industrial areas needed to build a varyag sized carrier fully (or near fully) indigenously?.
In a word...yes.

I believe they either have already started preparing to do so...or that they soon will. One day, we'll have a new thread called "All about the PLAN Caircraft Carriers. There will be a lot of excitment on that thread when the day comes too.
 

Franklin

Captain
The Vikaramditya saga continues: A New Turn
Now they are saying that 7 out of the 8 boilers overheated.

Vikramaditya: Why India must stay the course

Yet another likely delay in dispatching the much-awaited aircraft carrier has caused tempers to flare back in India, but the problems aren’t as grim as reported.It is a setback no doubt, but the “technical malfunction” experienced during INS Vikramaditya’s high-speed trials in the Barents Sea is hardly a disaster. Some sections of the media have reacted as if the innards of the aircraft carrier have been blown to kingdom come and the ship is crippled. But what happened was that seven of the eight steam boilers in the carrier’s power plant overheated, forcing the Russian-Indian crew to call off the trials.

Indians collectively threw their hands up in exasperation. You can’t blame them. INS Vikramaditya is the country’s most prestigious acquisition – the public has been waiting a long time for this majestic ship to sail into home waters. They have been let down repeatedly since 2005, the year Russia started refurbishing the old carrier, formerly known as Admiral Gorshkov.

However, casual observers have missed the point that the overheating was discovered during trials. That’s what trials are for – to identify and remove such glitches. And no, unlike what some ‘experts’ have been suggesting, fixing the problem won’t require cutting open the ship. Do they really think each time there is engine trouble the navy has to cut open its ships?

Despite two boiler blowouts during its Red Navy days, Vikramaditya’s problems aren’t insurmountable. Because the ship’s propulsion system is brand new, the problem is most likely with the integration of the boilers. The sea trials have been under way for several months off the north coast of the Barents Sea, and in all other respects the ship appears to be in working order. Two months ago the carrier experienced its first landing, by a MiG-29K.

In fact, some of the Indian crew has been working on the Vikramaditya for over a year, and currently most of the other 1,250 crew are present. Information trickling in from them suggests the first reports exaggerated the problem, and that the ship is sailing on its own power. The overheating seems to be happening at high speeds.

It’s complicated

The problems being faced by Russia and India are not unique. The US Naval War College says development of aircraft carriers is a risky, costly business, and accidents are highly likely. A former US naval aviator, Captain Robert C. Rubel, notes, “Between 1949, when jets started being deployed in large numbers by the Navy, and 1988, when the combined Navy/Marine Corps accident rate was reduced to the levels already achieved by the US Air Force, the naval services lost almost 12,000 aircraft and 8,500 air crew. In 1954 alone, the Navy and Marines lost 776 aircraft and 535 crewmen, and carrier-based tactical aviation suffered higher proportionate losses than the naval services as a whole.”

These losses are of truly frightening proportions but they are also a pointer to the reality of naval aviation – a moving airfield is unlike anything else in the world of weapons. India and Russia have barely scratched the surface of carrier construction. The hiccups with the Vikramaditya are, therefore, part of a steep learning curving.

Hard to get

An inevitable reaction to the boiler blowout will be the demand that Russia return the money and keep its boat. That would be highly unwise because India is down to half a carrier currently and new aircraft carriers are not available off the shelf. This is another unique problem with these massive ships – no country makes carriers to market, so basically India cannot order one for love or money.

Those describing the Vikramaditya as an expensive freebie forget that India’s first two aircraft carriers, INS Vikrant and INS Viraat, were also ‘gifts’ from Britain. In the 1980s, the Indian Navy inducted 30 British Sea Harriers for Viraat. More than half were lost to crashes, and the jets were grounded in August 2009 after a Harrier crashed in Goa, killing the pilot. Viraat, described as a “toothless tiger” has spent most of its life in dock, and only the ingenuity of Indian engineers has prolonged its life.

So right now India is sailing up the Indian Ocean without a paddle. The navy’s 40,000-ton carrier being built at Cochin Shipyard will not be ready before 2017. It is, therefore, urgent that India stay the course on Vikramaditya. A year’s delay won’t hurt when we have waited seven.

The Indian Navy needs at least three aircraft carriers to ensure that two always remain active – one each for the eastern and western seaboards – when the third is undergoing repairs.

Meanwhile, China, which has acquired aircraft carriers from Russia and Ukraine, has publicised its plan to develop three task forces, to patrol the areas of Japan and Korea, the western Pacific, and the Malacca Strait and Indian Ocean region.

Deeper relationship

The carrier is not a one-off thing between India and Russia. In April 2012, a stealth frigate, the INS Teg, was commissioned in Russia. It will be followed by two more such stealth ships, to be inducted early next year. The 125 meter frigate displaces 4,000 tons and includes the BrahMos surface-to-surface missile system. The Navy says the ship is “well suited to undertake a broad spectrum of maritime missions”.

The lease of the nuclear powered submarine Nerpa and Russia’s not-so-secret help with the development of India’s own nuclear submarine, Arihant, are pointers to the deep ties between the countries. Again, these are not off-the-shelf technologies and Russia is not sharing them with any other country.

However, the incident in the Barents Sea couldn’t have come at a worse time for bilateral ties. Russia has lost a string of military deals, notably for MRCA and helicopters. From the public’s point of view the latest soap opera needs to end soon. Sevmash Shipyard in North Russia, where Vikramaditya is being refitted, needs to get its act together. There are reports in the Russian press about mismanagement and lack of accountability at the company.

Sevmash could also read the riot act to the official who blamed India for the malfunction, for refusing to allow the use of harmful asbestos to insulate the engine. Better PR skills are needed in people working on such a strategic project.

A history of delays

India’s defence procurement system is also plagued by delays. For more than 30 years, India’s bureaucrats have failed to okay a long-range artillery gun for the army, leaving the generals nearly apoplectic.

There are also inexplicable delays in implementing the contract for the Scorpene attack submarine at a time when the number of India’s diesel subs is down to single digits.

And the 11-year Medium Range Combat Aircraft saga isn’t over yet, with the contract yet to be signed with France. In fact, it’ll take another three years after the signing of the contract before the first Rafales arrive in India.

Basically, every wing of the military is tangled in red tape. In this backdrop, blaming the Russians alone would be puerile.

Navy’s spearhead

Over the next five years, India will splurge more than US$ 100 billion to modernise its military. A good chunk of this will go to the navy, which after keeping a low profile for the past several decades is poised to break out to the deep blue sea. INS Vikramaditya will clearly be at the spearhead of that thrust, but there will be plenty of other areas where Russia’s military expertise will be required.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
^^ I read that the other day. This whole deal is getting worse for the IN.

It's like a kid has a new toy... Let's his friends play with it, and then break the darn thing. What a mess.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Here's a chart on the World's aircraft carriers I put together based on the research on my site:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


carrierchart.jpg

This chart is based on the current aircraft carirers that are verified as building, launched, and commissioned and in service.
 

Czar786

Just Hatched
Registered Member
When China bought Varyag from Ukraine, the whole point was that China had to pretend they weren't going to finish it as a warship. On the other hand, India was open about what they wanted and it made more sense to have Russia (given they designed it) to reconfigure it. Russia was going to give the ship away and just charge for the refit. Seemed look a good deal (at the time!)

We indian knows how russia works they always under quote and then they raise the price same with aircraft carrier ,nuke sub and now french also learn from russia they want 1 billion more for scorpion sub and our politian is okie with that .
 
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