Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Under these circumstances, where will any UK government find the money to remain a nuclear power? The plan seems to be that UK will have one big aircraft carrier, a few destroyers and frigates and the ability to destroy half the world.
O, let's not forget a shrinking RAF and an overextended army.
The Nuclear deterrent issue is entirely seperate from the rest of the defence funding issues, but only in the sense that the UK government will not even consider axeing it on cost grounds. It's just a matter of what they will cut instead to pay for it. The current shambolic crowd in westminster are completely illiterate on the subject of defence unlike their US counterparts, primarily because none of them have ever served in the military. Their few military advisors are all ex Army, and they all appear to hold the blinkered view that the war in the Stan is all that matters and is the pattern for all future wars. It's an attitude known as "If I can't see it from my Foxhole in the desert, then it is irrelevent to defence". Hence the negative attitude to the Navy and the Air Force. Hence the eagerness to abandon LRMP capability and 'Gap' Carrier capability for ten years.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Dicovery channel (UK) are running trailers for a documentary series chronicling the last few months service life of HMS Ark Royal R07, no dates given yet but should be worth a watch. More details as we get them.
 

Scratch

Captain
So, for further clarification, Lusty will become an LPH and serve in that role until the middle of the decade and then be retired once Ocean comes out of her refit, from wich point on she'll be the only amphibious aviation ship in the RN until QE comes. Is that about correct?
 

Obi Wan Russell

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So, for further clarification, Lusty will become an LPH and serve in that role until the middle of the decade and then be retired once Ocean comes out of her refit, from which point on she'll be the only amphibious aviation ship in the RN until QE comes. Is that about correct?

Yup that appears to be it. The ConDems are completely illiterate on the subject of defence, and think a single helicopter carrier is adequate for the Navy. The whole 'two ships needed to keep one available' is completely beyond their ken, and the flagship of the RN is now the LPD HMS Albion!
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Yup that appears to be it. The ConDems are completely illiterate on the subject of defence, and think a single helicopter carrier is adequate for the Navy. The whole 'two ships needed to keep one available' is completely beyond their ken, and the flagship of the RN is now the LPD HMS Albion!
Amazing. I hope sanity will return. In the mean time, my prayer shall be, "God preserve the RN!"

How unbelievable that the RN should be reduced to such a state of affairs. Beligerent nations and peoples must be smiling and rejoicing...hoping to spread the mania to other nations, most notably the US.
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Amazing. I hope sanity will return. In the mean time, my prayer shall be, "God preserve the RN!"

How unbelievable that the RN should be reduced to such a state of affairs. Beligerent nations and peoples must be smiling and rejoicing...hoping to spread the mania to other nations, most notably the US.

As I said earlier, the current crop have no military experience, bar a handful of ex army majors and colonels who in the light of the past twenty years of defence cuts, are only interested in sticking up for their own service. So the Army must be preserved at all costs even though large chunks cannot be justified any more. The Army fanboys criticise the Navy and Air Force for holding onto 'Cold War Legacy' platforms like Carriers and Typhoon, yet they insist no cuts can be made to the 20,000 strong British Army of the Rhine, as it is vital in defending us from the imminent attack of the Soviet Hordes in East Germany... Yes you read that right. The Army won't give up 20,000 soldiers whose Raison d'etre ceased twenty years ago, yet struggle to keep half that number in the Stan and argue the Navy and Air Force should be slashed as they are not relevent to COIN ops in the desert, which we are already expected to pull out of in just over four years...

I'm going to lie down in a dark room now. Today is my 41st birthday. I got one card. And I am filled with the urge to beat the living daylights out of the next Tory I meet!
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Yeah, and the buttons seem awfully small for someone working them in a polar winter.
Why need it been done on deck. Why can't the aircraft tell the ship how heavy he is, how much fuel, ordnance he carries.
The ship can then calculate how to instruct the catapult installation.

The pilot holds up a chalk board with the aircraft's launch weight for the Catapult Officer to read. The cat is then adjusted for the aircraft take off weight. Keep in mind that flight ops have to be able to be conducted EMCON. No radio communication at all, just hand and light signals.
I guess the little calculator thingy is supposed to be easier and more consistent? Dumbing down the Navy if you ask me, but nobody's asking.
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Ark Royal has returned home for the final time, docking in Pompey december 15th 2010, to be formally decommissioned in March this year. For Sale, one careful owner. Illustrious is currently in refit, and will recommission as a helicopter carrier (LPH), though she will retain the capacity to operate Harriers, It's just we won't have any left. The Harriers are for sale too, though they are somewhat modified away from USMC standard so unless the Marines are really short of airframes they are unlikely to head west. The RN's Harrier Pilots are in the process of moving westwards though, the first 12 (effectively 801NAS) began training with the USN last year, whilst the remainder are due to go over the pond this year. Originally (prior to SDSR) they would have been split between the USN's Hornet sqns and the USMC's Harrier sqns, but now it seems they will be all passed through the USN's training pipeline over the next three years. The RAF's Harrier pilots are being absorbed into the Typhoon and Tornado sqns where possible.

Oh God, Pensacola will never be the same again, lol. Hide the women and children! I wish I was going through flight school again.
 

delft

Brigadier
The pilot holds up a chalk board with the aircraft's launch weight for the Catapult Officer to read. The cat is then adjusted for the aircraft take off weight. Keep in mind that flight ops have to be able to be conducted EMCON. No radio communication at all, just hand and light signals.
I guess the little calculator thingy is supposed to be easier and more consistent? Dumbing down the Navy if you ask me, but nobody's asking.

Saving time during flight deck operations is also necessary. The aircraft and the ship can communicate using LED's. No aircraft or satellites is going to listen in to that.
 
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delft

Brigadier
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

You make the classic mistake of confusing size with cost. If you want it cheaper, it's the weapon and sensors you have to cut back on as well as manpower. An aircraft carrier's raison d'etre is to carry and operate aircraft, and it's ability to do so is entirely related to it's size. Efficiency increases exponentially with physical size, hence the Nimitz class for example with only point defence weapons. take an Invincible class, keep the weapon and sensor fit the same but double the size of the ship (from 20,000 to 40,000 tonnes) and you do not come even close to doubling the cost. You do get a far more effective carrier and have the option of configuring it for CATOBAR ops.

The morale of the tale is if you want it to cost less, cut everything else before you cut back the hull!
I don't want to cut back, I want to redesign. If you say the larger the better, then why are USN aircraft carriers 100 000 tons and not 150 000 tons? Surely because other factors come into the considerations.
PLAN wants effective aircraft carriers according to its own needs. A major design consideration for USN is the ability to maintain a bombing campaign against some small or medium sized country.
PLAN would call that interfering in the affairs of that country and won't provide this capability in the
next half dozen or more carriers. So it doesn't need magazine space for these bombs and missiles.
I was reading a few days ago about the decision of the Chinese government to develop nuclear reactors using a liquid Thorium fluoride mantle around the reactor space. In the mantle U233 is bred, which is then introduced in the reactor space where it is fissioned to provide the power.
These reactors work at a temperature of 900 or 1000K, versus a LWR working temperature of about 600 K. This gives a very much higher thermal efficiency, so for a given output power the thermal power necessary is much lower. This thermal power is about commensurate with the number of atoms split per second (U235 in the LWR, U233 in the Thorium reactor. A specialist will likely object, but I have not investigated refinements).For each split atom 2 or 3 neutrons are produced. In a steady state one of these leads to the splitting of another atom, while the other neutrons are absorbed or escape. Escaping neurons must be absorbed in shielding. In a Thorium reactor another neutron would be absorbed by the Thorium to produce another U233 atom, reducing the neutron flux very significantly.
If such a reactor were to be used in a ship it would be much smaller and lighter than a LWR and its shielding would also be much lighter.
These reactors promise to be much cheaper than LWR's. They can be effective in large and small sizes.
So imagine an aircraft carrier with such a power plant. It would be much smaller than a USN carrier even before you reduced its capabilities. If the escorts also used similar power plants the carrier would not carry fuel for these escorts.
If PLAN then specifies an aircraft carrier around 2020 it might indeed be much smaller than 100 000 tons.
 
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