Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Jeff Head said:

Unbelievable...after what that vessel did for the UK, and the many brave sailors who made that possible. The UK should keep her and the others in reserve and then at least one or more should be set aside as a museum.

Seems like the UK is going to be deficient in decks and aircraft for a few years at least. What's the current plan to tide over to the QE?

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Depends who you ask; I see no real sign of costruction work slowing significantly, she could still start sea trials in 2016. Work on HMS Prince Of Wales is still scheduled to begin in March. At the moment QE will probably enter service around 2017-18 as a helicopter carrier to relieve HMS Ocean before F-35C ops begin in 2019-20. HMS Illustrious is to stay on until 2014, allowing Ocean to be refitted then Ocean is to remain until 2018. Of course all this is subject to change...

Obi Wan Russell said:

Depends who you ask; I see no real sign of costruction work slowing significantly, she could still start sea trials in 2016. Work on HMS Prince Of Wales is still scheduled to begin in March. At the moment QE will probably enter service around 2017-18 as a helicopter carrier to relieve HMS Ocean before F-35C ops begin in 2019-20. HMS Illustrious is to stay on until 2014, allowing Ocean to be refitted then Ocean is to remain until 2018. Of course all this is subject to change...

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Sp, after 2014, if Illustrious replaces Ocean as a helo carrier, there will be no aircraft carrier capability until 2019 or 2020?

Or will Illustrious still retain harriers through that period then transfering them to the QE when she comes on?

Jeff Head said:

Sp, after 2014, if Illustrious replaces Ocean as a helo carrier, there will be no aircraft carrier capability until 2019 or 2020?

Or will Illustrious still retain harriers through that period then transfering them to the QE when she comes on?

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The Harriers are gone. last flight was december 15th last year. The sqns will disband formally shortly without replacement. The RAF pilots will try to be absorbed into the Tornado and Typhoon forces, whilst the FAA pilots are going to the USN for three year exchange tours (albeit one way exchanges!). the 12 pilots who were to have been used to from 801 NAS last year are already in the States flying with the USN, 800 NAS and the RN half of IVsqn are due to follow this year. Under the current plans, Illustrious will recommission from her current refit as a helicopter carrier (still able to embark other nation's Harriers if required) and remain in service until 2014, when Ocean will have completed her last major refit. Illustrious will then pay off and Ocean will soldier on alone until 2018, when QE should be ready for service (as a helicopter carrier initially).

The Commando Helicopter Force of four sqns (848NAS OCU, 845NAS and 846NAS frontline Sea King HC4 and 847NAS with Lynx AH for Royal Marine support) was scheduled to replace their forty or so Sea King HC4s by 2016 with 25-28 Merlin HC3/3A currently operated by the RAF, after they had been adequately 'marinised' with folding rotors and tails as well as lashing points and other changes. The Lynx AH will be replaced by a smaller number of Lynx Wildcats (army variant, down from 6 to 4). Now there rumours flying around that the RAF will hang on to it's Merlins as the replacements, 12 new Chinooks (from an original order of 22+) may be cancelled. The RAF is making statements to the effect that shipboard operation of helos is only a minor consideration for their helicopter crews (!!!) so there is no need for a full time specialist Commando Helicopter Force, and they should just be disbanded as the SK4s wear out. Another suggestion doing the rounds is a 'Joint Force Merlin' with one RN and one RAF Merlin sqn. After their recent behaviour, I don't think anyone will seriously consider getting 'into bed' with the Crabs for a long time...

Re: Aircraft Carriers II. Captains Log Supplemental:

With regard to the axeing of the Harriers, the plan was originally to axe the Tornado GR4s as this would produce savings over the next decade of £7Billion, but four days before the defence review was announced the RAF top brass (ex Tornado mafia...) persuaded Cameron to axe the Harriers (saving £1.1Billion) and HMS Ark Royal (saving £500million) immediately instead. Now because the savings produced have fallen so short of the original requirement, further cuts will be required this year during Planning Round 2011 (PR11), expected to include axeing another type 23 frigate prematurely amongst other measures. In case you hadn't heard, our new Nimrod MRA4s are being cut up fro scrap as we speak, never having flown and costing £4Billion for just 9 aircraft. The RAF gladly offered up our Carrier capability and our LRMP capability to keep their beloved (and ageing) Tornados, so now Russian subs can happily sail right up the Clyde to Faslane and have a good look at our SSBNs anytime they want. Officially the Nimrod's role is to be filled by a Type 23 Frigate and it's Merlin (so that's one pulled from other taskings, and another to be axed. Beggars Belief!) as well as Hercules aircraft for SAR patrol. That would be one of the Hercules which are in such short supply keeping our forces supplied in the Stan and elsewhere. I'll have to stop now as I'm about to start swearing in a loud voice and it may spill over onto this forum...

Re: Aircraft Carriers II. Captains Log Supplemental:

A few pics of what we have lost:

HMS Invincible laid up in Pompey dockyard, Ark Royal at sea and returning home to Pompey last December through the mist, HMS Cornwall, one of the four Type 22B3 Frigates being paid off immediately and a Harrier GR9 from 800NAS with special disbandment tail markings. The 57 Harrier GR9s are currently being placed in storage pending possible sale to a foreign air force. They have all been recently overhauled and upgraded under the Harrier JUMP program, and are viable for at least 10-15 years of service.

Obi Wan ..this is sad..

But is their any talk of USMC Harriers deploying with the Ark Royal?? Or assigning any of those Harrier pilots to the USMC for training or exchange?

bd popeye said:

Obi Wan ..this is sad..

But is their any talk of USMC Harriers deploying with the Ark Royal?? Or assigning any of those Harrier pilots to the USMC for training or exchange?

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Ark Royal has returned home for the final time, docking in Pompey december 15th 2010, to be formally decommissioned in March this year. For Sale, one careful owner. Illustrious is currently in refit, and will recommission as a helicopter carrier (LPH), though she will retain the capacity to operate Harriers, It's just we won't have any left. The Harriers are for sale too, though they are somewhat modified away from USMC standard so unless the Marines are really short of airframes they are unlikely to head west. The RN's Harrier Pilots are in the process of moving westwards though, the first 12 (effectively 801NAS) began training with the USN last year, whilst the remainder are due to go over the pond this year. Originally (prior to SDSR) they would have been split between the USN's Hornet sqns and the USMC's Harrier sqns, but now it seems they will be all passed through the USN's training pipeline over the next three years. The RAF's Harrier pilots are being absorbed into the Typhoon and Tornado sqns where possible.

Thanks Jedi Master.. you are indeed wise..

So there is still a small possibility that the Illustrious could make some sort of "deployment" with USMC Harriers like in ..2007 I think?? I hope so.

bd popeye said:

Thanks Jedi Master.. you are indeed wise..

So there is still a small possibility that the Illustrious could make some sort of "deployment" with USMC Harriers like in ..2007 I think?? I hope so.

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She most certainly could, and I hope she will. A little pressure on the ConDems from uncle Sam on the whole carrier subject wouldn't go amiss right now. Illustrious is to remain in service until 2014 under current plans, so only three years left.

Under these circumstances, where will any UK government find the money to remain a nuclear power? The plan seems to be that UK will have one big aircraft carrier, a few destroyers and frigates and the ability to destroy half the world.
O, let's not forget a shrinking RAF and an overextended army.