Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

I guessed I was stepping on somebody’s toes when expressing doubts about the quality of the TARAWA class and the usefulness of the LHA/LHD’s as Harrier carriers. I do not see any reference to the value of their contribution to US operations.

If the TARAWA class is as good as claimed, whyever do the US, whose finances are not are all inexhaustible, build new LHA’s? And why are they being retired ahead of replacement? LPD 7, 8, 9 and 15, which have no doubt also a lot of deployments behind them, are still soldiering on, though some of them are approaching 50 years. The nice photos of AMERICA under construction do not suggest it will be ready anytime soon. As for the total numbers planned, the USN 2011-15 construction only provides for LHA 7. What the eight amphibians planned 2016-28 in the long-range construction plan are, is anyone’s guess, but the WHIDBEY ISLAND cannot live on forever either.

I guessed I was stepping on somebody’s toes when expressing doubts about the quality of the TARAWA class and the usefulness of the LHA/LHD’s as Harrier carriers. I do not see any reference to the value of their contribution to US operations.

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You did not step on my toes.. read Jeff's post..

Actually, they have all deployed with Harriers and those Harriers have been used quite extensively. They are their for close air support and have been used in combat in that role numerous times.

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If the TARAWA class is as good as claimed, whyever do the US, whose finances are not are all inexhaustible, build new LHA’s? And why are they being retired ahead of replacement?

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As Jeff stated..money..Unfortunately.. It's a cost cutting move to retire the ships early. As for the America class... The USMC really put pressure on congress and the USN for a new LHA with a more close air support role.

LPD 7, 8, 9 and 15, which have no doubt also a lot of deployments behind them, are still soldiering on, though some of them are approaching 50 years.

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True! The San Antonio LPD-17 Class will replace there ships. Hopefully all the kinks of the LPD-17 class are being worked out.

North Arabian Gulf (Apr. 20, 2003) – The amphibious assault ship USS Boxer (LHD 4) moves into position as the amphibious assault ships of Commander, Task Force Fifty One (CTF-51) come together in an unprecedented formation during operations in the North Arabian Gulf. This marked the first time that six large deck amphibious ships from the East and West coasts have deployed together in one area of operation. Led by the flag ship USS Tarawa (LHA 1), the ships in the second row from bottom to top are USS Saipan (LHA 2) and USS Kearsarge (LHD 3); and the third row of ships are USS Boxer (LHD 4), USS Bataan (LHD 5) and USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD 6). CTF-51 led Navy amphibious forces in the Arabian Gulf region during Operation Iraqi Freedom. The 32 ships of CTF-51 composed the largest amphibious force assembled since the Inchon landing, during the Korean War. Operation Iraqi Freedom is the multinational coalition effort to liberate the Iraqi people, eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and end the regime of Saddam Hussein. U.S. Navy photo by Chief Photographer's Mate Tom Daily. (RELEASED)

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A truely impressive photo – and, one supposes, put together that purpose by the 5th Fleet PR staff – it does not really look like an operational landing force, does it? And did they in fact conduct an amphibious operation? All I remember is the British making a small one in the general direction of Basrah.

If the LHA-6 is what the Marines wanted, they made a serious blunder. They will miss the well deck sorely (even if they do not get any EFVs) and wonder what to make of all that aviation space.

But going back to Delft’s interesting remark on the SCS as the future of aircraft carriers, since few people will wish or be able to afford monsters designed to pound hapless countries to submission, it strikes me that – following my own line of thought to some sort of logical conclusion – that the ship he has in mind is in fact building. That is the Super-CAVOUR (as I think one may call it) known as Type 71 under construction for the Indian Navy. With an air group of 12 MIG-29K (I think it might be slighly more, didn’t they order some 45 all told?) launched from a skijump, it will be able to provide fleet air defence and some capacity to intervene ashore. If they also retained the amphibious capabilities of the CAVOUR, it would be a further plus. You get a proper fighter without fiddling with VTOL, and all at a displacement of barely 40,000 tonnes.

PS – Apologies to bd popeye for going off-topic, but the discussion(s) opened by Delft seemed more interesting than the apparently endless reopening of subjects such as: Will the VARYAG be a mere training carrier (of course not), has it retained the Granit siloes (of course not), does it have a propulsion system (of course, use your eyes and common sense), what will it be (steam turbines, of course).

franco-russe said:

If the LHA-6 is what the Marines wanted, they made a serious blunder. They will miss the well deck sorely (even if they do not get any EFVs) and wonder what to make of all that aviation space.

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All sorts of opinions and speculation about the America and its utility without the well deck.

But, with all of the San Antonio class vessels coming on, and with the Wasp Class out there...and one or two more AMerica class yet to build, the Marines themselves pushed for this vessel.

They will fully test out the use of the OSprey as an air assault along with Super Stallions, etc. And they will be able to carry much more support in terms of JSFs and the new Viper-Cobras.

I believe they will be happy with that capability, and will mix it in with a traditional well-deck vessel.

That picture shows them doing essentially that with two of the vessels outfitted in the HArrier-air spport role while the others were outfitted for air and marine assault.

I believe an America class with JSFs, coupled with a Wasp class and one or more San Antonio's would present a very formidable PhiBron with a lot of capability.

Such a force for most combat in the forseeable future, short of the US facing someone with a larger carrier, would free up that force from being watched over by a super carrier.

Anyhow, time will tell. I am looking forward to the America, and maybe at least one more like her, joining the fleet.

A truely impressive photo – and, one supposes, put together that purpose by the 5th Fleet PR staff – it does not really look like an operational landing force, does it?

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Oh yes that photo is just a "photo op" But the ships did operate and were in support of the operations in Iraq.

If the LHA-6 is what the Marines wanted, they made a serious blunder. They will miss the well deck sorely (even if they do not get any EFVs) and wonder what to make of all that aviation space.

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Jeff answered that query! Oh yea I think the EFV is a dead duck! Pun intended.

With all that aviation space I'm sure they are planning on up to 30+ JSF. Plus helos & Ospreys.

But these assessments are of course dependent on the F-35B being reprieved (and I think it will not be).

As I understand it, a USN Amphibious Squadron is basically made up of one LHA/LHD, one LPD and one LSD. In some cases an additional unit may be added , e.g. PHIBRON 11 in Sasebo, which has two LSD. This also explains the current target figure of 33 amphibious ships: 10 LHA/LHD, 11 LPD and 12 LSD.

franco-russe said:

But these assessments are of course dependent on the F-35B being reprieved (and I think it will not be).

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It will be. Too much investment in it, and they arleady have four flying modules of it.

The US Navy's test pilot made his first flight recently and loved it, as have all who have flown it. it has already accomplished VSTOL, VTOL, susper-sonic, etc. The Marine Corp future is all tied up in it from an Amphi support standpoint and like the Osprey, which also was plagued early-on, they will work through it and have an unbelievably good product when all is said and done.

Once they get there, it will be very popular amongst other nations who can only afford the jump-jet carriers.

But that's just my opinion. Time will tell.

If you can only afford jump-jet carriers you're too poor to buy F-35B.

Good point about F-35B! – which would leave Japan as about the only prospective buyer.

Having just seen USN procurement programmes for FY12-16, I note that another LHA 6 – or LHA(R) as it is still called – is programmed for FY16. By the time LHA 8 is commissioned, which will be something like 2022, LHD 1 WASP will be 33 years old, so if it follows the precedent of NASSAU, i.e. early retirement, LHA 8 should more appropriately be called LHD(R).

Right now they are not planning to spend a lot of money on F-35B, since they have cut 75 planes from the FY11-16 procurement programme.

Of course, the most important foreign customer for F-35B, Britain with a planned acqusition of 138, is gone, having opted instead for some 40 F-35C.

delft said:

If you can only afford jump-jet carriers you're too poor to buy F-35B.

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I don't believe that will be the case.

We're not talking about US LHAs which are much more expensive that what the French, Italians, Spanish, Japanese, Koreans and others are building...and on all of those vessels the F-35B would be a very capable and well spent addition given its capabilities.

franco-russe said:

Right now they are not planning to spend a lot of money on F-35B, since they have cut 75 planes from the FY11-16 procurement programme.

Of course, the most important foreign customer for F-35B, Britain with a planned acqusition of 138, is gone, having opted instead for some 40 F-35C.

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Actually, it is not true that Britain is "gone" by any stretch. There are rumors that they mya buy only 50 aircraft, but after what they have already spent, and the level that they have been involved in the program, I find that difficult to believe. Time will tell, but I believe beofree all is said and done, that the UK will buy both the C and B variants, though the C seems likely to be the higher number.

Outside of that, thee are still many countries looking at the B, and are making commitments to it. Italy may buy up to 60 of the B models, Israel is planning on buying a few of the VTOL models too out of the 50 and perhaps 100 they intend on purchasing altogether. I bet Spain buys some as well as some of the other operators of jump jet carriers...like Korea and ultimately Japan.

Time will tell...but despite some of the difficulties, the program is proceeding along. The fifth B model was delivered in late January for testing. There are something like a total of 30 more aircraft currently building, some of all threee variants.

The Air Force will become operational woith some of their aircraft soon enough and you will see those orders take off amongst the partner countries.

In the end, I am willing to bet that the Marines get their aircraft, just like they got the Osprey and have worked it through its troubles. There are already five of the VTO L aircraft flying, the fifth having been just delivered, and the contract that was awarded late last year has them building 16 more of the VTOL aircraft now. I do not believe it will be canceled.

They already have ten or so conventional aircraft flying and that same contract called for 15 more, and they have three Navy aircraft flying and that contract has them building 4 more of those.

Soon, there will be about 50 JSFs logging an unprecented amount of testing hours before full production. The program, despite some of the difficulties (which were not unexpected) is actually pretty impressive.

Off track a bit...I believe that in the end you will see Opsreys operating off of American amphibious vessels, both the LPDs and the LHAs, and I believe variants will be made for the Navy carriers as well.

I have always felt that the Opsrey would make an excellent AEW aircraft for jump jet decks, and probably could be developed into an excellent ASW platform as well.

But now we are getting off topic.