2022 Olympic Winter Games Beijing

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
That reasoning is actually wrong. Chinese dynasties had held the same attitude towards Chinese emigrants as far as we know (by official decrees) since Ming dynasty. The idea is much earlier than that. There is an ancient saying by Han Yu 韩愈 768-824AD who quoted Kong Zi (Confucius) as saying

“孔子之作《春秋》也,诸侯用夷礼则夷之,夷而进于中国则中国之。”(《五百家注昌黎文集》卷一一《原道》)

It means, treat the feodal lord (Chinese people) as foreigners if they practice foreign rites, treat the foreigners as Chinese if they act as Chinese.

Worth to note, Han Yu lives in the Chinese Tang dynasty, the zenith of Han Chinese power. He isn't some government scholars of Yuan or Qing dynasty to justify "foreign" rules. This idea was also inherited by the Qing dynasty in their policy towards emigration to South East Asia. It is an universal Chinese idea.

From this ideology, an oversea Chinese especially after generations have almost exclusively foreign mind therefor can not be Chinese and has to be treated as foreigners.

Remember, China was a super power all the way to 1845, yet it has practised the same policy for most of its history. It has nothing to do with the weakness since 1845, but very much to do with the deep concept of what is Chinese. A person must be Chinese in the mind which is impossible if the person is immersed in a foreign society. Let's be honest, no matter how hard the parents may try to keep the child Chinese, one becomes what one grows up and lives in. A drop of water can not resist the flow of the river.

One may argue against this idea according to modern western idea of nationhood, but this idea is very defining Chinese one as old as China itself, so don't expect China to give it up quickly and easily.

I myself is Chinese living abroad with Chinese citizenship. I feel the convenience of holding a foreign passport. But when it was my time to make a choice, I chose to live with the inconvenience and did not give up my Chinese citizenship. If someone makes the opposite choice for whatever reason, that just means that he/she does not value China enough, therefor China should not value that person too much either. It is not like China has to actively beg someone to remain Chinese.
A drop of water can not resist the flow of the river.
Dang that's deep. I love this quote from you @taxiya
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
That reasoning is actually wrong. Chinese dynasties had held the same attitude towards Chinese emigrants as far as we know (by official decrees) since Ming dynasty. The idea is much earlier than that. There is an ancient saying by Han Yu 韩愈 768-824AD who quoted Kong Zi (Confucius) as saying

“孔子之作《春秋》也,诸侯用夷礼则夷之,夷而进于中国则中国之。”(《五百家注昌黎文集》卷一一《原道》)

It means, treat the feodal lord (Chinese people) as foreigners if they practice foreign rites, treat the foreigners as Chinese if they act as Chinese.

Worth to note, Han Yu lives in the Chinese Tang dynasty, the zenith of Han Chinese power. He isn't some government scholars of Yuan or Qing dynasty to justify "foreign" rules. This idea was also inherited by the Qing dynasty in their policy towards emigration to South East Asia. It is an universal Chinese idea.

From this ideology, an oversea Chinese especially after generations have almost exclusively foreign mind therefor can not be Chinese and has to be treated as foreigners.

Remember, China was a super power all the way to 1845, yet it has practised the same policy for most of its history. It has nothing to do with the weakness since 1845, but very much to do with the deep concept of what is Chinese. A person must be Chinese in the mind which is impossible if the person is immersed in a foreign society. Let's be honest, no matter how hard the parents may try to keep the child Chinese, one becomes what one grows up and lives in. A drop of water can not resist the flow of the river.

One may argue against this idea according to modern western idea of nationhood, but this idea is very defining Chinese one as old as China itself, so don't expect China to give it up quickly and easily.

I myself is Chinese living abroad with Chinese citizenship. I feel the convenience of holding a foreign passport. But if I am to make a choice, I live with the inconvenience and will not give up my Chinese citizenship. If someone makes the opposite choice for whatever reason, that just means that he/she does not value China enough, therefor China should not value that person too much either. It is not like China has to actively beg someone to remain Chinese.
Good point. The Chinese passport is a symbol of Chinese pride and civilizational identity and shouldn’t be used like a credit card. However, I think the concept of Chinese version of India’s NRI, that @weig2000 brought up, may work. For India, NRI’s still make a contribution to their nation. For instance, NRI’s help support India in times of economic hardship:

NRI contribution to India’s GDP is significant especially in these times of economic slowdown. The RBI has directed the Indian banks to attract NRI deposits by giving them the options of numerous short and long term investment plans.

  • Remittances - The huge Indian diaspora is responsible for a significant amount of money inflows to the country. Such money inflows are called remittances, which is the money sent by migrant workers back to their home country.
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Obviously, China is not like India, especially when it comes to money and stature. But I do believe that having such a system can at least allow those who learned a lot in foreign nations (not that fake c**p that many dumb but rich Chinese students bring back from the West to brag to ignorant people) to bring back their experiences and contribute to China’s development.
 

weig2000

Captain
That reasoning is actually wrong.

It's not reasoning and, I don't see why it's wrong.

Chinese dynasties had held the same attitude towards Chinese emigrants as far as we know (by official decrees) since Ming dynasty. The idea is much earlier than that. There is an ancient saying by Han Yu 韩愈 768-824AD who quoted Kong Zi (Confucius) as saying

“孔子之作《春秋》也,诸侯用夷礼则夷之,夷而进于中国则中国之。”(《五百家注昌黎文集》卷一一《原道》)

It means, treat the feodal lord (Chinese people) as foreigners if they practice foreign rites, treat the foreigners as Chinese if they act as Chinese.

Worth to note, Han Yu lives in the Chinese Tang dynasty, the zenith of Han Chinese power. He isn't some government scholars of Yuan or Qing dynasty to justify "foreign" rules. This idea was also inherited by the Qing dynasty in their policy towards emigration to South East Asia. It is an universal Chinese idea.

From this ideology, an oversea Chinese especially after generations have almost exclusively foreign mind therefor can not be Chinese and has to be treated as foreigners.

Remember, China was a super power all the way to 1845, yet it has practised the same policy for most of its history. It has nothing to do with the weakness since 1845, but very much to do with the deep concept of what is Chinese. A person must be Chinese in the mind which is impossible if the person is immersed in a foreign society. Let's be honest, no matter how hard the parents may try to keep the child Chinese, one becomes what one grows up and lives in. A drop of water can not resist the flow of the river.

One may argue against this idea according to modern western idea of nationhood, but this idea is very defining Chinese one as old as China itself, so don't expect China to give it up quickly and easily.

I myself is Chinese living abroad with Chinese citizenship. I feel the convenience of holding a foreign passport. But when it was my time to make a choice, I chose to live with the inconvenience and did not give up my Chinese citizenship. If someone makes the opposite choice for whatever reason, that just means that he/she does not value China enough, therefor China should not value that person too much either. It is not like China has to actively beg someone to remain Chinese.

The rest of your post is good and I really like it. It's just not a direct response to mine above.

I think what you point out is that there need some "Chineseness" that define whether person can be considered a Chinese. This is also consistent with the long tradition of Chinese culture and thinking. I very much agree with this.

Notice in my post, I named two categories of people that should be or can be given Chinese citizenship. One is about China-born ethnic Chinese who may reside outside China and hold foreign passport. The idea is that you're a Chinese by blood (however it is defined) and you're essentially the first-generation one. The implication is that over time, your Chineseness may be diluted if you're too far removed from China even if you're Chinese by blood. This is actually consistent with some of what you described above.

The second category that I named is about foreign nationals of non-ethnic Chinese. This is more of an exception category that not many people are qualified. That's why I said there need to be conditions (and criteria). In reality, China has been practicing such policy on a case-by-case basis. They might want to codify the condition and criteria.

Eileen Gu is born to a Chinese mother and she can choose her Chinese citizenship before 18 (?) according to China's nationality law. She is qualified by law. In practice, she speaks almost at native-speaker level Mandarin and is quite familiar with Chinese culture. In fact, she has lived in China about 25% - 30% of time every year since she was three or four years old according to her. The relevant part to my post would be that if she chooses to hold dual citizenship, it should be allowed in law.

Bottom-line, China will not become an immigrant-accepting country in law or in practice.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
If she made so much money in 2021, then I can't imagine what will happen for this year. Could get >$100 million
View attachment 82564
I hope she did renounce her American citizenship before she began her commercial life. Otherwise, the US tax authority will ask for a large chunk of her money earned in China. I think she had the chance to do so in time because she took her Chinese passport at the age of 15 when she did not begin to make money.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I hope she did renounce her American citizenship before she began her commercial life. Otherwise, the US tax authority will ask for a large chunk of her money earned in China. I think she had the chance to do so in time because she took her Chinese passport at the age of 15 when she did not begin to make money.

She's resident in the USA, so the IRS will tax worldwide income for individuals.

It's better to be paid into a non-US company with lower tax rates, then only pay out what you need.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's not reasoning and, I don't see why it's wrong.



The rest of your post is good and I really like it. It's just not a direct response to mine above.

I think what you point out is that there need some "Chineseness" that define whether person can be considered a Chinese. This is also consistent with the long tradition of Chinese culture and thinking. I very much agree with this.

Notice in my post, I named two categories of people that should be or can be given Chinese citizenship. One is about China-born ethnic Chinese who may reside outside China and hold foreign passport. The idea is that you're a Chinese by blood (however it is defined) and you're essentially the first-generation one. The implication is that over time, your Chineseness may be diluted if you're too far removed from China even if you're Chinese by blood. This is actually consistent with some of what you described above.

The second category that I named is about foreign nationals of non-ethnic Chinese. This is more of an exception category that not many people are qualified. That's why I said there need to be conditions (and criteria). In reality, China has been practicing such policy on a case-by-case basis. They might want to codify the condition and criteria.

Eileen Gu is born to a Chinese mother and she can choose her Chinese citizenship before 18 (?) according to China's nationality law. She is qualified by law. In practice, she speaks almost at native-speaker level Mandarin and is quite familiar with Chinese culture. In fact, she has lived in China about 25% - 30% of time every year since she was three or four years old according to her. The relevant part to my post would be that if she chooses to hold dual citizenship, it should be allowed in law.

Bottom-line, China will not become an immigrant-accepting country in law or in practice.
If you revisit my post #913, you would realize that my post was about I disagreeing with your following notion which I have highlighted in post 913. My reply did not reject accepting foreign nationals as new Chinese citizens.

The current no-dual-citizen policy/law is rooted in historical insecurity or victimhood or resource-poor mentality.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
She's resident in the USA, so the IRS will tax worldwide income for individuals.

It's better to be paid into a non-US company with lower tax rates, then only pay out what you need.
But what if she is not resident of US anymore since before her commercial life? She can do that, right?
 

weig2000

Captain
If you revisit my post #913, you would realize that my post was about I disagreeing with your following notion which I have highlighted in post 913. My reply did not reject accepting foreign nationals as new Chinese citizens.

The current no-dual-citizen policy/law is rooted in historical insecurity or victimhood or resource-poor mentality.

I see.

Keep in mind citizenship is a modern concept for China. There was no equivalent concept in ancient China. So the historical root that I refer to is really about more recent history (post-1840, say).
 
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