2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: Russia war games over Ukraine prompt US warning

This is typical, playing the victim/wronged party, while ramping up the military apparatus to intimidate the other party, all the while", our team continues to diminish our ability to firmly and resolutely speak to anything other than, "their social agenda, and tearing down our moral values", it does make one nauseous to listen to this outfit, makes one wish to retch when looking at them, and weep when looking at the wholesale destruction of the bedrock of the USA. in the meantime back in washingtown, droning, droning, droning, on and on for hours on end....... talk,, and really sending Kerry out to make a statement.......... wow!

Thing is AFB Russia will try and hold onto Crimea as long as possible it's too strategic for them

We will have to wait and see what comes of it, Georgia in 2008 and Syria in 2013 showed US is not up to engage the Russians after a certain point

This has given them too much confidence and no one in Europe has the guts to engage them either no one wants the hassle of Russian enemy

Russia will not leave Ukraine too many Russians live there and where there is Russians there is support from Kremlin

Serbia of 1999 was 15 years ago when Russia was on its knees under Putin Russia has guts and balls
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Maintaining the territorial integrity of Ukraine intact appear more and more to be not a possibility. It will be increasing difficult to contain a southeast which wants to be more in the Russia camp and a northwest which wants to be an independent Ukraine aligned with the European Union.

Putin may very easily produce an argument that the ethnic Russians within Ukraine represent a group which Russia may have to protect and incorporate. I would hate to see the Ukraine split in two, but the reality is that this may be Russia’s last opportunity to reincorporate the Crimea and Russian dominant areas back into the nation and reverse Nikita Kruchev’s 1954 mandate, which gave it away.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Maintaining the territorial integrity of Ukraine intact appear more and more to be not a possibility. It will be increasing difficult to contain a southeast which wants to be more in the Russia camp and a northwest which wants to be an independent Ukraine aligned with the European Union.

Putin may very easily produce an argument that the ethnic Russians within Ukraine represent a group which Russia may have to protect and incorporate. I would hate to see the Ukraine split in two, but the reality is that this may be Russia’s last opportunity to reincorporate the Crimea and Russian dominant areas back into the nation and reverse Nikita Kruchev’s 1954 mandate, which gave it away.


I think if Ukraine is partitioned, then the much reduced independent Ukraine would become a more digestable morsel for other powers. One should examine eastern European history from about 1400 - 1750 for insights about what might happen.

Poland loaths Russia, hates Germany, and fears both. I suspect Poland will not be reticient at all about trying to consolidate and strengthen her position in between Russia and Germany by bringing independent Ukraine under Polish influence to create an Poland-Ukraine block. In the few times in history when Poland wasn't a punching bag for Russia or Germany this is what she had done.

Germany too will try to extend her influence over Ukraine, and has money, industry and technology on her side. But I think it is easy even now to whip up Germanophobia in the eastern lands that Germany so ruthlessly and genocidally abused during WWII. If I was planning long term strategy for Germany I would let Poland have Ukraine and than tacitly ally myself with a weakened Russia.

I think an independent Ukraine in the long run makes countries in Eastern Europe more likely to act independently for their own regional interests rather than collabratively for the global interests of the EU. So in the long run, while an independent Ukraine might be good for individual EU states, it is probably not that good for EU as an global power block.
 
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shen

Senior Member
so three EU PMs sponsored a compromise deal. the next day, radicals rejected the deal. did Victoria "F*ck EU" Nuland decide to go for broke and pulled strings behind the back of EU? I can see why the EU leaders are nervous, just look at the people with real power in Ukraine today.

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[video=youtube;C5EXdbzIDEk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5EXdbzIDEk[/video]
 

delft

Brigadier
Re: US military news thread

Some people immediately think of military options. If Russia wants to intervene forcefully it might close the gas pipelines. How would USAF or USN reopen them?
Quite likely the Russians are thinking of softer options. They can depend on the current rabble in Kiev to quarrel for months I think and the finances of the country will be ever more in chaos.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Gentlemen! Surely you both know the rules of the game?

With geopolitical poker, you either go big or you go home. You are both correct in identifying Crimea as the consolation prize, but if either of you were in Putin's boots, why on earth would you be so quick to settle with this boogie prize when the whole of Ukraine is still well in play?

Perhaps you have not heard about Putin's ace in the hole? Yanukovych is safe in Russia, and that gives Putin all the edge he needs to go all in and play for the true prize.

If I was Putin, I would already be infiltrating in special forces and FSB agents into Crimea and other strongly pro Russian Ukrainian areas to set up networks and build support.

When those networks are in place, I would have Yanukovych declare, with some merit, that the Kiev Parliament had been compromised by the 'extremist thugs' who effectively overran the Capital, and that all decisions and declarations made by Parliament since had been done so under duress, and thus unconstitutional and illegal.

Yanukovych has already rejected the interim government and declared himself the true president of Ukriane, I(as Putin) would have him sneak into Crimea, to raise a clarion call to all 'true' Ukrainians to rise up against the 'extremists' that have 'hijacked' the country, and to rise up in defense of democrasy and freedom and all that good stuff the west loves to go on and on about. At the same time, Yanukovych should declare that this is an internal Ukrainian matter and demand outside powers stay out. He should also demand that the Ukrianian army adhere to their previous position of neutrality and stay out of it as well.

The previously mentioned Russian special forces and agents would signal their networks to rise up, and Yanukovych would instantly have himself a 'people's army' ready to march on Kiev.

This people's army should not have too many military grade weapons, probably just the trained soldiers and a few fillers to not make it too obvious, and will be armed mostly with clubs and sticks and other improvised weapons like the mobs in Kiev.

If the Ukriane army stays out of it, this 'people's army', buttressed by special forces armed with assault rifles and unconstrained by rules of engagement will crush the mob in Kiev with ease, take over Parliament and then Yanukovych can get the surviving MPs to rubber stamp anything he likes.

The blood he had to shed would make Yanukovych a pariah in the eyes of the west and with much of his own people, which in turn would only bind him closer to Russia, and Ukriane with him.

That's the best case scenario for Putin.

If the Ukraine military breaks its vow of neutrality and crushes Yanukovych's people's army, Putin can use the bloodshed to invoke R2P and send in the tanks.

More bloody, more obvious, less plausible deniability and more chance other foreign powers might get involved, but odds are the Russian army can crush Ukriane's army, and no western nations has the stomach to get into a head on ground war with Russia, so similar results, only a lot more messy and at a much higher price in terms of blood, treasure and diplomatic fallout.

In the unlikely event Yanukovych's people's army fails, or if the Ukriane military could somehow defeat the Russian army, Putin could always play for Crimea then. By that time, there would have been so much bloodshed, most would welcome an end to the violence and would settle for Crimea breaking away and joining Russian far easier than if Russia started off only trying to play for Crimea in the first place.

That's the optimal game plan for Putin, the only real question is whether he has the balls and ruthlessness to spill that much blood. I look him in the eyes and say yes to both accounts, and I think most world leaders would agree with me. That's what makes Putin such a dangerous opponent to play geopolitical poker with. He has the balls to go all in, and is not constrained by the moral or ethical concerns that might make other leaders bulk.
 

shen

Senior Member
Russia doesn't need to do anything, just wait. The moderate puppets in charge now (at least nominal, they don't control the fascist gangs running the streets) are all old players who were also in charge the last time they took power by street riot. The last time, these puppets proved to be incompetent, just as corrupt as Yanukovych and quickly turned on each others. The Ukraine people finally got tired of them and voted for Yanukovych in 2010.
These puppets aren't necessarily anti-Russian either as long as they get their cut. The real dangers are the fascist gangs running around. Which is why Russia need to show some military muscle and organize militias to show that it is ready to defend the Ukrainian-Russians. As long as the Ukrainian Russians are not cowered by threat of street violence, they are again organize political oppositions and wait for the fools to fail again.
 

delft

Brigadier
I think if Ukraine is partitioned, then the much reduced independent Ukraine would become a more digestable morsel for other powers. One should examine eastern European history from about 1400 - 1750 for insights about what might happen.

Poland loaths Russia, hates Germany, and fears both. I suspect Poland will not be reticient at all about trying to consolidate and strengthen her position in between Russia and Germany by bringing independent Ukraine under Polish influence to create an Poland-Ukraine block. In the few times in history when Poland wasn't a punching bag for Russia or Germany this is what she had done.

Germany too will try to extend her influence over Ukraine, and has money, industry and technology on her side. But I think it is easy even now to whip up Germanophobia in the eastern lands that Germany so ruthlessly and genocidally abused during WWII. If I was planning long term strategy for Germany I would let Poland have Ukraine and than tacitly ally myself with a weakened Russia.

I think an independent Ukraine in the long run makes countries in Eastern Europe more likely to act independently for their own regional interests rather than collabratively for the global interests of the EU. So in the long run, while an independent Ukraine might be good for individual EU states, it is probably not that good for EU as an global power block.
About a week or ten days ago I saw an article by someone whose name I have forgotten ( Russian sounding IIRC ) that referred to talk in Hungarian political circles about the possibility of sending the Hungarian army into Ruthenia, a part of Ukraine that was part of Hungary until the end of WWI.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
That's the optimal game plan for Putin, the only real question is whether he has the balls and ruthlessness to spill that much blood. I look him in the eyes and say yes to both accounts, and I think most world leaders would agree with me. That's what makes Putin such a dangerous opponent to play geopolitical poker with. He has the balls to go all in, and is not constrained by the moral or ethical concerns that might make other leaders bulk.


The Moscow has immense leverage over Ukraine, controlling the country's energy supplies and providing a vital market for its exports. Moreover, Russia has a web of ties to the political and business elite in the Ukraine. Putin will probably decide to use this covert network of influence to ensure that Ukraine's upheaval ends in a way that is in Russia’s favour or at the very least can tolerate.

As you also correctly stated, the most successful leaders are the ones not constraint by morality.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
so three EU PMs sponsored a compromise deal. the next day, radicals rejected the deal.

The problem with the deal was that the protesters themselves weren't consulted. They've been driving the change, not a small number of political leaders. And in almost any sort of negotiation it's subject to agreement by your backers, whether it's a legislative, head of state or the general population.

I'm not sure why people are so surprised the deal fell apart when it was made public. After dozens of being people shot, the people in Kiev weren't going to let Yanukovich stay in power for the best part of a year and be given the opportunity to try to fix the next election.

That's the best case scenario for Putin.

No one for a moment would believe that the former president could form a "people's army" based just on the Russian-speaking people of Crimea. Also the people in Kiev and western Ukraine would almost certainly meet this army, resulting in many deaths. The best case scenario would be another bloody episode that would be pinned on Putin as well as Yanukovich.

If the Ukraine military breaks its vow of neutrality and crushes Yanukovych's people's army, Putin can use the bloodshed to invoke R2P and send in the tanks.

Which would be pretty messy for Putin. The Georgian intervention wasn't exactly a glorious steamroller, so I don't see why the larger and better equipped Ukrainian forces would be a walkover. And there'd be every chance NATO would get involved, whether by design or because a country like Poland went to Ukraine's aid. The more force Putin would be willing to use to break the Ukrainian defences would increase the chance of NATO intervention.

or if the Ukriane military could somehow defeat the Russian army, Putin could always play for Crimea then

Then Putin would have been humiliated and the Russian people would be royally p*ssed off at him for throwing away the lives of Russian sons for nothing.

Putin would be wise to leave force out of this and keep his manoeuvres purely political.

He has the balls to go all in

He has the balls to take on small countries that he thinks people don't care about. He doesn't have the courage to square up against anyone even half Russia's size.
 
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