2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos
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shen
Senior Member
how do you "consult" a mob? listen to whoever is shouting the loudest or shoving the hardest? Yanukovich must take responsibility for ordering live rounds to be used of course. But given the clear evidence of deadly violence used by the radicals to push the protest to be ever more violent, I'm not sure if that order is legally unjustified. The compromised deal provided mechanism for legal investigation of any excesses.
There is no evidence the 2010 election won by Yanukovich was rigged. He wasn't even in charge of the government at that time and won by a large margin.
Ukraine is so evenly divided and the opposition so incompetent, Yanukovich doesn't need to rig the election.
The civilian deaths are tragic, but they are also fools used as puppets in the geopolitics struggle between great powers. For decades, American money have stoked the fire Ukrainian nationalism. The sentiment expressed in Chuck's posts earlier in the thread are what's driving the amateur adventurists in charge of the US State Department. This has nothing to do with human rights or rule of law. It is all about payback to Russia for dare to interfere with the US on the international stage.
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Mr T
Senior Member
I think the protesters would take exception to being called a "mob". Yes, some were violent. But the majority are peaceful.
How would you consult with them? Lots of ways. Get up on the stage with a mic, tweet some proposals, Facebook it, etc. It took a few hours tops to find out the "deal" had bombed. Throwing a few ideas out there earlier on would have generated a similar reaction - or maybe just listen to what people were saying already.
Throwing petrol on a fire does not put it out.
I never suggested he rigged the 2010 election - would have been hard to do so given he wasn't in power! People were worried he would try to manipulate the next election, much like what happened in 2004 when his mate was in charge.
It is not clear (and hardly ever is) who instigated the greater violence as the protests ramped up and the Ukrainian President called out the riot police.
The fact is that a group of potests formed over the President's actions with respect to several things, probably the final straw being the Ukraine-Russian deal announced by the Presidentand his unwillingness to back away from it. But there was more to it than that as the President ammassed more power to his office, and led a prgressively more oppulent and detahced life style.
As those protests grew, the local security force (not military) response to them also grew. From the many videos and pictures I have seen, and talks with Ukranians, that presence led to shoving, scuffles, fights, night sticks, etc.
At some point the molitav cocktails (fire bombs) and shooting started. Who knows who did what first?
The fact is, the shooting increased, as did protestor response to it...with more fire bombs, some handguns, shotguns, and rifles of their own.
I have several sources who tell me that requests for military crackdowns were considered by the administration...but flatly denied by the military. Whatever the whole story is, the protests coninued to heat up...the security forces attempts to stop them ramped up, scores of protestors were killed, security forces began to be overrun and captured, and some police units and others went whole sale over to the protestors. But the Ukrainian Military never intervened. They stayed in their barracks and bases. No heavy weapons were ever employed.
Ultimately, the protestors continued to make progress towards the government buildings. The Parliament became more animated..and ultimately it became clear to the President that the protestors were going to reach his government compound/housing/buildings/etc. and so either late Friday or early Saturday (Feb 21-22), he left.
Once he left the capitol..and his security forces vacated too...the Paliament met Saturday morning and at that point used the Ukranian constituional process to impeach him..and the porposal for impeachment carried, and he was officially and legally removed from office. There is now a warrant issued for his arrest.
That's where it is in Ukraine in the capital now. Crimea has had some unrest...but nothing compared to what went on in Kiev. The local government is still in control of the situation there, and apparently the former President is now in Russia. They are not sure.
Putin has postured in response to US blustering and held fairly large military exercises on the border. But there have been no incursions...and those exercises are now over. Through them, Putin made it clear he could have over 100,000 soldiers and hundreds of tanks and aircraft available at anytime within a few days time.
Hopefully it will settle down.
I expect that the Ukraine is going to have to allow even more autonomy for the Crimea. I hope, that even if there are protests or even violence there, that the Ukrainians will not make the same mistake Georgia made and walk headlong into a Vlademir Putin Russian Bear trap. If they don't act rashly, they may lose more influence over the Crimea...but they can also retain the vast majority of their country intact without any military confrontation and bloodletting.
I hope that peaceful otucome is what happens.
The fact is that a group of potests formed over the President's actions with respect to several things, probably the final straw being the Ukraine-Russian deal announced by the Presidentand his unwillingness to back away from it. But there was more to it than that as the President ammassed more power to his office, and led a prgressively more oppulent and detahced life style.
As those protests grew, the local security force (not military) response to them also grew. From the many videos and pictures I have seen, and talks with Ukranians, that presence led to shoving, scuffles, fights, night sticks, etc.
At some point the molitav cocktails (fire bombs) and shooting started. Who knows who did what first?
The fact is, the shooting increased, as did protestor response to it...with more fire bombs, some handguns, shotguns, and rifles of their own.
I have several sources who tell me that requests for military crackdowns were considered by the administration...but flatly denied by the military. Whatever the whole story is, the protests coninued to heat up...the security forces attempts to stop them ramped up, scores of protestors were killed, security forces began to be overrun and captured, and some police units and others went whole sale over to the protestors. But the Ukrainian Military never intervened. They stayed in their barracks and bases. No heavy weapons were ever employed.
Ultimately, the protestors continued to make progress towards the government buildings. The Parliament became more animated..and ultimately it became clear to the President that the protestors were going to reach his government compound/housing/buildings/etc. and so either late Friday or early Saturday (Feb 21-22), he left.
Once he left the capitol..and his security forces vacated too...the Paliament met Saturday morning and at that point used the Ukranian constituional process to impeach him..and the porposal for impeachment carried, and he was officially and legally removed from office. There is now a warrant issued for his arrest.
That's where it is in Ukraine in the capital now. Crimea has had some unrest...but nothing compared to what went on in Kiev. The local government is still in control of the situation there, and apparently the former President is now in Russia. They are not sure.
Putin has postured in response to US blustering and held fairly large military exercises on the border. But there have been no incursions...and those exercises are now over. Through them, Putin made it clear he could have over 100,000 soldiers and hundreds of tanks and aircraft available at anytime within a few days time.
Hopefully it will settle down.
I expect that the Ukraine is going to have to allow even more autonomy for the Crimea. I hope, that even if there are protests or even violence there, that the Ukrainians will not make the same mistake Georgia made and walk headlong into a Vlademir Putin Russian Bear trap. If they don't act rashly, they may lose more influence over the Crimea...but they can also retain the vast majority of their country intact without any military confrontation and bloodletting.
I hope that peaceful otucome is what happens.
Re: Russia war games over Ukraine prompt US warning
Well, and that is my point, the Bear has come out of hibernation, and the only folks in danger from the BHO regime are true patriots that not only love and want to defend out country, but value our friends and allies and desire to keep the promises we have made to stand against evil and oppression. Day by Day we are diminished militarily and morally by the BHO regime. I love GWB, I slept nights, I trusted in his own precious love for his people and his nation, when he opened his mouth, what came out was sincere and heartfelt, he was a true patriot and had a heart to serve, in spite of the vicious lies and outright fabrications of our "liberal" "spoonfed" media. Ahghanistan was basically drawing down as his presidency ended, BHO ramped it up, and left Iraq ASAP, a decided lack of character, good judgement, and honest intent seems to be the main thesis of our current "play-book"..... my point is that telling the Russians to back-off is likely to have the opposite effect that we desire?????? very sad, but unfortunately true.....Mods, feel free to edit or delete my "rhuminations" hope that's out of my sytem now. This submitted respectfully, I don't wish to offend or discredit, only plead for sympathy for our current state????
Well, and that is my point, the Bear has come out of hibernation, and the only folks in danger from the BHO regime are true patriots that not only love and want to defend out country, but value our friends and allies and desire to keep the promises we have made to stand against evil and oppression. Day by Day we are diminished militarily and morally by the BHO regime. I love GWB, I slept nights, I trusted in his own precious love for his people and his nation, when he opened his mouth, what came out was sincere and heartfelt, he was a true patriot and had a heart to serve, in spite of the vicious lies and outright fabrications of our "liberal" "spoonfed" media. Ahghanistan was basically drawing down as his presidency ended, BHO ramped it up, and left Iraq ASAP, a decided lack of character, good judgement, and honest intent seems to be the main thesis of our current "play-book"..... my point is that telling the Russians to back-off is likely to have the opposite effect that we desire?????? very sad, but unfortunately true.....Mods, feel free to edit or delete my "rhuminations" hope that's out of my sytem now. This submitted respectfully, I don't wish to offend or discredit, only plead for sympathy for our current state????
Guys...TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC.
We do not need that.
Yes there are geopolitics in play here.
But stop with the insults on either side, calling people fools for standing up and protesting, impuning character, using hot rhetoric to try and read the minds of, or project thoughts on these leaders...etc., etc.
What has happened is pretty straight forward. Messages are being sent on both sides now...and received.
Let's all pray cooler heads prevail and that the worst of the violence and death is over.
But, please...Do not bad talk, disrespect, make fun of, or slight those who have so recently died. They are barely cold in their graves.
Thanks.
We do not need that.
Yes there are geopolitics in play here.
But stop with the insults on either side, calling people fools for standing up and protesting, impuning character, using hot rhetoric to try and read the minds of, or project thoughts on these leaders...etc., etc.
What has happened is pretty straight forward. Messages are being sent on both sides now...and received.
Let's all pray cooler heads prevail and that the worst of the violence and death is over.
But, please...Do not bad talk, disrespect, make fun of, or slight those who have so recently died. They are barely cold in their graves.
Thanks.
Not to get too political and off topic, but I think that the biggest problem with these kinds of "revolutions" is that even after all the bloodshed and sacrifices, the people still suffer for nothing.
Just look at Egypt, Libya, and Syria. I am sure that the people who rebelled had grievances that needed to be addressed. But after they prop up a new leader/faction, he/it ends up just as bad, if not worse, than the previous regime. Now that the corrupt president of Ukraine is deposed, what's next? I think the pattern will only repeat when another Oligarch, one who opposes Russia and friendlier to the West, ascends to presidency. Who then will oppose his/her despotism then?
Just look at Egypt, Libya, and Syria. I am sure that the people who rebelled had grievances that needed to be addressed. But after they prop up a new leader/faction, he/it ends up just as bad, if not worse, than the previous regime. Now that the corrupt president of Ukraine is deposed, what's next? I think the pattern will only repeat when another Oligarch, one who opposes Russia and friendlier to the West, ascends to presidency. Who then will oppose his/her despotism then?
shen
Senior Member
what you are describing is exactly rule by mob. whoever can shout the loudest or more to the point, the most violent radicals effectively rule the silent majority.
ordering live fire may not the politically correct thing to do for Yanukovich in his situation. my point was it was likely a legal decision to engage with deadly force people who are burning and killing police and provoking violence. the police wasn't randomly spraying the crowd with automatic fire. all descriptions of the dead I've read indicate snipers were selectively targeting violent individuals.
I see, so this is a preemptive regime change, just in case he decides to cheat next time.
siegecrossbow said:
well said. when I was younger, I swore I would never become an "anti-revolutionary" when I get older. But now, I really have few sympathy for these "revolutions". they don't offer real solutions. just prey on people's fears and hatred, rouse emotions, cause a lot of bloodshed, and worst of all establish the precedent of street violence as a viable political tool.
when innocent people die on the streets, powerful politicians pull the strings and play their game in the background.
just watched a TV show in which a certain intelligence agency use social media to manipulate public opinion. if you don't have the time, just skip to 32:30.
Sorry Shen, the rules specifically forbid the type of language that the video you linked to introduces to the forum.
If you want to send the URL to that video to individual members who do not object...email, or PM them, but please do not post videos with that type of language in them to the forum.
Video Removed
Not allowed means not allowed.
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Bear traps are being laid out there...the Ukraine has to be very careful and not over respond. Whatever they do...they better not send in their military to put stuff like this down, or they will lose the Crimea completely.
Fox News said:
I wonder if the armed men in the Crimea are from the former Berkut units?
It is never a good idea to simply disband (sack) a large number of elite paramilitaries during a time of tension.
It is never a good idea to simply disband (sack) a large number of elite paramilitaries during a time of tension.
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