2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

I am not sure who they are under the uniforms.

But the uniforms and gear are Russian.

We have to remember what is happening here. I personally believe (as I have said before) that a Putin supported, Russian Bear traps is being laid out here. Inviting the Ukrainians in Kiev to intervene.

But the Ukraine has to be very careful and not over respond. Whatever they do...they better not send in their military to put stuff like this down, or it will become the pretext for them to lose the Crimea completely.

Let's look back a few years. When the Soviet Union disintegrated power went in Russia to Yeltsin and about twenty men who got extremely rich from the sell off of state owned enterprises. The explanation given by the Western advisers was that the enterprises were better in the hands of private persons, even when they were criminals, than in the hands of the state. To me the model followed resembles that of the setting up of the chaebols in South Korea in the '60's. These men had a large political power but were defeated when a coalition of two groups, the supporters of Putin and Medvedev, outmanouvred them. They were intimidated when the politically most prominent of them, Chodorkovski, was jailed for twenty years. Several of them departed for London and other places and corruption was reduced. The same model was introduced in Ukraine were the most prominent politician among them is Yulia Timoshenko. She too was jailed but all politicians on both sides remained corrupt and Ukraine didn't start the necessary cleansing. So now the extremely rich, except Timoshenko, are not prominent among the politicians but they expect to survive any change of government. There will be no advantage to ordinary people. Let's see when and how the criminal class now so prominent in the country will be defeated. I hope soon but I'm not optimistic.

delft said:

The explanation given by the Western advisers was that the enterprises were better in the hands of private persons, even when they were criminals, than in the hands of the state.

The same model was introduced in Ukraine were the most prominent politician among them is Yulia Timoshenko. She too was jailed but all politicians on both sides remained corrupt and Ukraine didn't start the necessary cleansing. So now the extremely rich, except Timoshenko, are not prominent among the politicians but they expect to survive any change of government.

There will be no advantage to ordinary people. Let's see when and how the criminal class now so prominent in the country will be defeated. I hope soon but I'm not optimistic.

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Big problem with that 1st statement delft.

No press outlet, no government, no official organization of any type to my knowledge made such a statement. The problem of course is the "even if they are criminals," part.

It does not matter if the people owning and operating business are state sponsored criminals, mafia, or their own brand of criminals. The people are never served in the long run (or the short for that matter) by any brand of criminal activity.

The whole idea is to let the free market work with honest, law abiding, private ownership (or market ownership) and leadership of their companies. The free market is meant to allow honest businesses to flourish, use their profits to create better products, hire more people, and grow. When that happens everyone is well served...including government who reaps larger tax revenues from the growth.

I too distrust Yulia Timoshenko. Perhaps at one time early on her concern was for the people and conducting honest business and leadership...but I personally believe she allowed the wealth and growth to corrupt her. IMHO, the Ukraine should stay well away from allowing any such person to be given any position of trust in their government.

But this is now getting political and will lead to the typical emotional, vested interests on both sides of that politics and so is probably best left off the thread. We want to discuss what is going on there on this thread, including the geopolitics from a strategic a level, like 20,000 feet...not necessarily allow the thread to descend to specific political ideologies making their points and counter points.

So, let's get back to following the news of what is happening, and giving our views of it without necessarily getting so embroiled in the specific ideologies on both sides if we can. Our own experience on SD has taught us that if we get too far down on the ideological totem pole...emotions and arguments end up derailing the thread.

Yanucovych statement

Jeff Head said:

Big problem with that 1st statement delft.

No press outlet, no government, no official organization of any type to my knowledge made such a statement. The problem of course is the "even if they are criminals," part.

It does not matter if the people owning and operating business are state sponsored criminals, mafia, or their own brand of criminals. The people are never served in the long run (or the short for that matter) by any brand of criminal activity.

The whole idea is to let the free market work with honest, law abiding, private ownership (or market ownership) and leadership of their companies. The free market is meant to allow honest businesses to flourish, use their profits to create better products, hire more people, and grow. When that happens everyone is well served...including government who reaps larger tax revenues from the growth.

I too distrust Yulia Timoshenko. Perhaps at one time early on her concern was for the people and conducting honest business and leadership...but I personally believe she allowed the wealth and growth to corrupt her. IMHO, the Ukraine should stay well away from allowing any such person to be given any position of trust in their government.

But this is now getting political and will lead to the typical emotional, vested interests on both sides of that politics and so is probably best left off the thread. We want to discuss what is going on there on this thread, including the geopolitics from a strategic a level, like 20,000 feet...not necessarily allow the thread to descend to specific political ideologies making their points and counter points.

So, let's get back to following the news of what is happening, and giving our views of it without necessarily getting so embroiled in the specific ideologies on both sides if we can. Our own experience on SD has taught us that if we get too far down on the ideological totem pole...emotions and arguments end up derailing the thread.

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No one said capital is better in the hands of criminals than in the state. But what the west did encourage Russia to do was to so thoroughly jettison all aspects of soviet concept of criminality that even those whose actions would never have been condoned or tolerated in the west were briefly no longer allowed to be suspected in Russia.

It is these who were thus not considered criminals in Russia on western advise, but would have been criminals in western countries if they did what they've done in the west, that briefly became installed as beacons of free enterprise in Russia.

I think the slogan of western intervention in the early 1990s would more appropriately have been "any excess of free enterprise is better than letting anything from soviet system survive", which patently was untrue, if economic productivity and standard of living of the entire population is used as an independent measure.

chuck731 said:

I have not heard that berkut men were dismissed. Rather the unit was disbanded, which presumably mean the men are still employed, but reassigned.

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This is a lift from the BBC Website live feed

17:19:

Russia says it will fast-track passports for members of Ukraine's Berkut riot police after the unit was disbanded by Kiev's new authorities, AFP reports. The force has been accused of using snipers to shoot protesters during the dying days of President Yanukovych's regime. Russian authorities are quoted as saying that the passports will be issued in Crimea's capital Simferopol.

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It does not sound as though these guys are still on the state payroll!

SampanViking said:

This is a lift from the BBC Website live feed



It does not sound as though these guys are still on the state payroll!

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It says nothing about payroll. If the members of the former berkut fear persecution, then they would try to leave the country by going somewhere that definitely won't extradite them back to Ukraine to face prosecution. This is independent of whether they were reassigned, put on administrative leave, or severed from the force all together.

chuck731 said:

No one said capital is better in the hands of criminals than in the state.

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We were speaking specifically of businesses and their management.

chuck731 said:

But what the west did encourage Russia to do was to so thoroughly jettison all aspects of soviet concept of criminality

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I believe it is correct to say that they were encouraged to jettison all aspects of Soviet ideology and government form...but strecthing that to include criminality in general is, well...a huge strecth. I am unaware of any specific and official consultations or directiosn to do so..

chuck731 said:

It is these who were thus not considered criminals in Russia on western advise

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Again, I am aware of no official or specific advise to that effect.

chuck731 said:

I think the slogan of western intervention in the early 1990s would more appropriately have been "any excess of free enterprise is better than letting anything from soviet system survive."

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Again, I am not aware of any official or even individual politican, economist, or consultant with any kind of standing recommending this to the extent of using criminal behavior to do so.

Now. did criminal activity set in? Yes.

Mafia style organizations opened up shop all around in the vacuum that ensued after the fall. Something always rushes in to fill a vacuum.

But let's not blame that on the US or the West. The US and major western powers, and major economists and consultants were not encouraging or whipping it up such criminal behavior. A criminal, chaotic Russia would not have served any civilized interests. To the contrary it would have been a significant vulnerability, tragedy, and threat given all of the weaponry that could be absconded with.

As it was, Putin ultimately became Prime Minister of Russia in August 1999, became acting President in December 1999 when Yeltsin resigned, and then won the Presidency in March 2000 in early elections with 53% of the vote He won again in 2004 with 71% of the vote and was the President until 2008. He was barred from a 3rd consecutive Presidency by the Russian Constitution. Medvedev (Putin's Prime Minister) was elected in 2008 and the next day appointed Putin as Prime Minister again. In the 2012 elections, Putin was elected again with 65% of the vote...he then appointed Medvedev Prime Minister.

In reality, Putin has been running Russia since 1999, for 15 years now...with no end in sight.

He's a strong leader, a crafty politician. Not to be underestimated in the least.

Guys when I first read it, I didn't believe it: the new Defence Minister of Ukraine is: (quote, Tenyukh was responsible for ordering Ukrainian naval vessels to block the entrance of the Russian Navy to the bay of Sevastopol, in response to the 2008 South Ossetia War., end of quote) ... credible source:

Jura said:

Guys when I first read it, I didn't believe it: the new Defence Minister of Ukraine is:

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(quote, Tenyukh was responsible for ordering Ukrainian naval vessels to block the entrance of the Russian Navy to the bay of Sevastopol, in response to the 2008 South Ossetia War., end of quote) ... credible source:

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Why would it be surprising that a government whose existence owes much to those who would be willing to face death to expel Russians would now chose someone to head a navy who have done things to gain credibility with precisely those same people?

Right now for its own survival, the Ukrainian military must not over play its hand, but must also not shy from forcefully and vigorously confronting any Russian overreach and exploiting any Russian misstep.