2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

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Mr T

Senior Member
Does anyone know if they have the same representatives or any at all to voice their concerns from this new Kiev government?

You mean, do they have elected representatives in the parliament? Well every part of Ukraine is represented in the Rada. They will have elected MPs, and I haven't heard anything to say all MPs from a particular region have been blocked from taking part.

If you mean, are there members of the Ukranian government from eastern Ukraine, I don't know. But the initial hostility to Yanukovych's fall from power in that area would make it difficult for eastern Ukrainian politicians to then join that government. They would have to accept what happened, but they seem more interested in trying to get Russia to invade.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
You mean, do they have elected representatives in the parliament? Well every part of Ukraine is represented in the Rada. They will have elected MPs, and I haven't heard anything to say all MPs from a particular region have been blocked from taking part.

If you mean, are there members of the Ukranian government from eastern Ukraine, I don't know. But the initial hostility to Yanukovych's fall from power in that area would make it difficult for eastern Ukrainian politicians to then join that government. They would have to accept what happened, but they seem more interested in trying to get Russia to invade.


I thought all the MPs from the eastern region of Ukraine has been replaced before the official election was to take part right after Yanukovych left?:confused:
 

delft

Brigadier
A Democracy is always the best form of government for personal, economic and social freedoms, however not all nations can handle a Western democracy and a democracy as such may not be the answer. First we need to think about how Western democracy works. A perfect example is the two party systems like the U.S.A. and U.K. (effectively two parties; Republican and Democrat, or Torry and Labour) then it only works with the undecided or non-aligned voters who change allegiance depending on various social and economic factors which interest them. There are large groups who always vote for one party or the other, but it is the undecided voters who decide the outcome of the election. Hence, U.S. elections are very much focused on the “swing” states that decide the outcome. In the Arab world you have Shia and Sunni Muslims and no swing voters, whichever has the majority in that country always gets into power creating a large disenchanted minority.

Some countries are so bitterly divided they could never have democracy and are broken up to separate the warring factions. Once the similar groups are divided, then Western democracy can function; e.g. India (Hindu) and Pakistan (Muslim); the old Yugoslavia into Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia.

To bring democracy to the Ukraine the territorial boundaries will need to be re-drawn to keep like minded groups together. The Ukraine is split into a West leaning population and a Russian leaning population. And unfortunately for the average citizen that just wants to live a tranquil life. These two polarized faction will not remain quiet and peaceful.

Personally I don’t like the why the Russians are handling the referendum and the annexation. There needs to be a rule of law. This has been a complete one handed exchange by Russia.
The feeling in The Netherlands is that our form of democracy is superior to that of other countries ( just as people in other countries feel about their democracy ). Governments here are dependent on support in parliament from at least two parties and the current government needs that of five parties.

Btw I'm seeing percentages of yes votes of 95 to 97% but no information about the percentage of people who voted. Does that mean it was far more than 50%?
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
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RT is quoting a turnout of 81% of which 97% were in favour.

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This would mean a significant number of none Russians also voting in favour.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
do you know what drives me nuts? The US,UK, even the Netherlands are not true democracy's yet just about everyone gets that wrong. They are True Democratic Republics'. The difference? In a true democracy everything is voted on and majority rule is absolute. The flaw? If 51% vote to kill 49% pray you were in the 51%.
a Democratic Republic rules via a system where in you elect and install representing individuals who then are supposed to enact the policy of the population well considering both the majority and the minority views and respecting a set system of Recognized Rights that the government cannot interfere with. The problems we have seen in the Ukraine and other places like Egypt and now Venezuela? The governments of these nations stopped listening to the population and decided that the people are under the government. Government is in there view absolute, but this has caused the population to feel that there rights guaranteed by that government ( they are not Granted by the government they are recognized by it or should be) are being infringed. The view we see from Russia in the case of the Ukraine is that the old Government had all the rights and the people are in the wrong. This is the thing that drives me insane! Its contrary to the very function of and need of government. Government is there at the grace of the community it represents to perform set functions for the community, Defense and enforcement of recognized ethical standards (I.E. You can't kill you neighbors.) with respect to a set number of limitations (I.E. What consenting adults do in there homes you might not agree with but if they are not infringing another persons rights there is nothing that should be done about it.) set services in regards to standards of living (I.E. Keeping roads, removal of sewage, search and rescue putting out fires) through either contracting with parties or creation of agencies to perform these services.
Yet what we see is the Government saying it has rights superior to the people. That's just mind boggling.
the people should be above the government. Yet it seems just about everywhere there is this mentality that the Government knows better and should set the standards not just for basic services but down to the way of life. I mean really, what right should a government have in decisions of a personal nature? What right should government have in developing business? I can understand preventing dangerous technologies from moving to places that could turn them against you. The Ukrainian people acted up as they viewed the Russian deal as the last straw. They say there nation bankrupted by the standing governments and when they felt that perhaps by moving to trade outside of simply Russia would have offered a chance as perhaps reestablishing there economic development and maybe even a chance at reforms. Yet then the Russian deal and in it a extreme Tariff with trade outside of the two way exchange. People protested, the government cracked down, lives were lost the protests got bigger and when the government moved to crack more skulls they suddenly found a population that was not going to take it. The population fought back.
In Egypt the Moslem Brothers set to rampant reforms targeting there pet issues, the economy kept falling worse and worse and they ignored it. The people were frustrated with Islamic state and financial ruin they protested, the brotherhood moved in to crack skulls. More protested more violence the Military had enough, they moved in and asserted authority whether rightly or wrongly. They acted on the will of the people, and set to trying again.
in Venezuela we see a government that has enacted extreme attempts at manipulation of the economy to the devastation of the economy, a strong arm held it together though, then he died and his cult of personality faulted as the selected replacement is no Chavez. So the people rise up the government moves to beat them down.
 

wowa97

Just Hatched
Registered Member
credit to Hongjian at CDF
Gregor Gysi of the German Socialist Party, "Die Linke" delivered a devastating, brilliant but impartial speech against the handling of the Crisis in the Ukraine.

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13.03.2014, Bundestag, Berlin, Germany.

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Gregor Gysi of the german Party "Die Linke" to the situation in Ukraine.
Translation by "iskra".

"The leader of the opposition, Gregor Gysi, will speak now:

Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen. Putin wants to solve the whole crisis in Ukraine militarily. He has not understood that the problems of humanity can neither be solved by soldiers, nor by weapons. On the contrary. Also Russia’s problems cannot be solved this way. His thinking and his actions are wrong and we condemn them explicitly. Yet, it is the same thinking that was and is present in the west for Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Lybia. System confrontations were replaced by the opposing interests of the USA and Russia. The Cold War is over, but such opposing interests can lead to very similar traits. The USA want to gain more influence and defend existing influence and Russia wants to gain more influence and defend existing influence. When talking about Russia, I shall only mention Georgia, Syria, Ukraine.

Even when one condemns Putin’s actions, one must also look at how the whole confrontation and intensification came to be. And I shall tell it to you very clearly: Everything that the NATO and the EU could have done wrong, was done wrong.

I begin with Gorbachev in the year 1990. He suggested to form a common European house: Dissolving of the NATO and the Warsaw Pact and finding a common security with Russia. This is what the NATO denied. They said: Dissolving the Warsaw Pact: Yes. The NATO stays… And from the defending alliance was made an interventional alliance. The second error: With the creation of German unity, the US foreign minister and the German foreign minister of the time, Genscher, and other foreign ministers told Gorbachev: No eastwards extension of the NATO will take place. This promise was broken. There was a radical extension of the NATO towards Russia. And the former US foreign minister Robert Gates described the rapid inclusion of the East European states into the NATO as a grave mistake and the attempt of the West to include Ukraine into the NATO as grave provocation - that’s not what I said, this was said by the former US foreign minister! Then, third, the decision was made to station rockets in Poland and the Czech Republic. The Russian government said: This concerns our security interests, we do not want this. The West couldn’t care less and it was done anyway. And finally, the NATO gravely and repeatedly violated international law in the Yugoslavian war. This is meanwhile even confirmed by former German chancellor Schröder. Serbia had not attacked another state and there was no decree of the UN Security Council. And yet, bombs were dropped, and for the first time since 1945 with German involvement. The citizens of Kosovo were allowed to decide for the separation from Serbia in a plebiscite.

Back then, I heavily criticised these violations of international law and I have told you for the case of Kosovo that a Pandora’s Box is being opened. Because if this is allowed in Kosovo, then you must also allow it in other regions. You insulted me. You did not take it seriously. And you did this because you thought you were such victors of the Cold War that all old measures were not applicable to you anymore. I tell you: The Basks ask why they can’t have a plebiscite that asks whether they want to belong to Spain or not. The Catalans ask why they can’t have a plebiscite that asks whether they want to belong to Spain or not. And so do the citizens of Crimea. And through violation of international law, through habitual law, you can create new international law, you know that. Yet, my opinion stands that the detachment of Crimea would be violating international law - as was the detachment of Kosovo.

I knew that Putin would refer to Kosovo and that is just what he did. And now you, Ms. chancellor, tell me that this situation is totally different. [Someone (Ms. Roth?) shouting “It is!”]. Yes, that may be… But you disregard that international law violation is international law violation. My dear Ms. Roth, why don’t you ask a judge if a theft of noble motive is not a theft in comparison to a theft of non-noble motive. He will tell you that it stays a theft. That is the problem! That is the problem! And Mr. Struck has explained a while ago that the Federal Republic of Germany must defend its security at the Hindu Kush. Now Mr. Putin explains Russia must defend its security at Crimea. Germany, by the way, had no fleet at Hindu Kush and was considerably further away. Still I say, both sentences were and are wrong.

Yet, the following holds: When many international law violators blames international law violator Russia to violate international law, this is not particularly effective and trustworthy. That is the fact we are facing. Obama spoke, like you, Ms. chancellor, of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the nations. But, these two principles were violated in Serbia, Iraq and Lybia. The West thought it could violate international law because the Cold War was over. Chinese and Russian interest were heavily underestimated. You did not take Russia with Yeltsin, who was often even drunk, serious anymore. But the situation changed. Very lately, you now again reference the principles of international law that were established in the Cold War. I am very much in favour of them being valid again, but then for all! This is the only way.

Then there was the tug of war between the EU and Russia with Ukraine in the middle. Both thought and acted the same. Barroso, head of the European Commission, said EITHER customs union with Russia OR contracts with us. He did not say BOTH. Either-or! And Putin said EITHER contracts with us OR the EU. Both thought and acted alternatively in the same way. It was a gigantic mistake from both sides. No EU foreign minister tried to speak to the Russian government while even recognising the rightful security interests of Russia. Russia is afraid that behind the EU, the NATO will enter Ukraine. It feels more and more surrounded. But everyone pulled at Ukraine. The EU and NATO foreign ministers completely ignored the history of Ukraine. They never understood the importance of Crimea to Russia. And Ukrainian society is deeply divided. Also this was not recognised. This deep division already showed in WWII. And it shows today. East Ukraine tends to Russia, West Ukraine tends to western Europe. At this moment, there is no single Ukrainian political figure that could represent both parts of society. That is a sad truth.

And then there is the Council of Europe and the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) which you gravely neglected, Ms. chancellor, Mr. foreign minister. The funding for these organisations was cut more and more in the past because you thought they were not important. Yet they are the only organisations in which both Russia and Ukraine also take part. Thus we must strengthen these organisations and not discuss over Russia’s exclusion. That is completely missing the point.

Then we saw a massive intensification on Maidan. Then we saw snipers and many deaths. There are various rumours. In such situations, people lie a lot. And that is why, in such situations, we propose an international investigation committee. We and the Ukrainians have a right to know what happened there, who is responsible… And I am happy that you support this, Ms. chancellor. On Maidan, there were many democratic forces. But also fascists. The west was directly and indirectly involved. And then foreign minister Steinmeier, the French and Polish foreign minister signed a contract with Janukovych and the opposition. And now you say, Mr. foreign minister, Janukovych dissolved the contract through his fleeing. That is wrong. The people on Maidan rejected this contract with great majority. And you, Mr. foreign minister, also did not advertise for this contract on the site. And only after the rejection, Janukovych left Kiev. Then, parliament had a meeting, and they voted him out of office with 72.88%. Yet, the constitution dictates 75%. Now Mr. Röttgen and others say, well, during a revolution you can’t take the constitution to the letter, what are a few percentiles more or less?… But Putin references this and says there was no constitutional majority to vote him out of office, and refers to documents received from Janukovych. By the way, during the poll, armed soldiers were present. Not very democratic. During the plebiscite in Crimea on Sunday, there will also be armed soldiers. Also not very democratic. Interesting is also that you, Ms. chancellor, say, that such a plebiscite is forbidden by the Ukrainian constitution. So when is the constitution to be upheld, and when not? When electing the president out of office it is not and for the plebiscite in Crimea it is? You should decide whether you accept the constitution as a whole or only in specific cases when you feel like it. The latter is the way I have seen and don’t like.

Then a new government was formed. Directly accepted by president Obama, also by the EU, also from Germany. Ms. Merkel! This government’s vice premier minister, the defence minister, the agricultural minister, the environmental minister, the Attorney General… are fascists! The head of the national security committee was co-founder of the fascist Swoboda party. Fascists have important positions and dominate, for example, the security sector. And never have fascists voluntarily given up power once they had conquered a part of it. At least Germany should have drawn the line here, especially because of our history. When Haider’s FPÖ joined the government in Austra, there were even contact barriers! And with the fascists in Ukraine we do nothing?! Swoboda has close contacts to the NPD and other nazi parties in Europe. The chairman of this party, Olek Tjahnybok, has stated the following. I am going to quote him now. You need to grasp this, what he has said literally: “Grab your weapons. Fight the Russian pigs, the Germans and the Jew swines and others pests”. End of quote. I repeat. This man has said “Grab your weapons. Fight the Russian pigs, the Germans and the Jew swines and others pests”. Attacks on jews and left-wingers are now common and to all this you say nothing? You talk with these Swoboda people? I think this is a scandal. I have to tell you this clearly.

Now you want, as you said, to impose sanctions, if all else fails. But they will not impress Putin. They will only make the situation worse. Kissinger, the former US foreign minister, is right. He says sanctions do not express a strategy but the lack of a strategy. That also holds for the escalating military flights over Poland and the Baltic states: What’s the point? Accounts of Janukovych and his supporters are blocked because they contain stolen state funds. My question: You did not know this? Second question: Why only their accounts? What is with the billions of oligarch money to support others, why aren’t you interfering there? Why is this going so one-sided?

There is only the way of diplomacy! First: The West must recognise the legitimate security interests of Russia on Crimea, which is by the way also how US foreign minister Kerry sees it. We must find a status for Crimea with which Ukraine, Russia and we can live. We have to guarantee Russia that Ukraine will not become a NATO member. Second: The perspective of Ukraine lies in a bridge function between the EU and Russia. Third: A process of understanding between east and west must be initiated in Ukraine, maybe through a federal or confederal status, maybe even through two presidents. What I accuse the EU and the NATO of: Until today, no relationship to Russia has been searched or found. This has to change dramatically. Security in Europe is not possible against or without Russia but only with Russia. And if the crisis is overcome one day, one advantage could be that international law is finally recognised by all sides again. Thank you. "
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Alea iacta est (the die has been cast). Europe is launching a trade war on Russia because of the Crimea issue.
It remains to be seen whether Russia is going to maximize her military gains by going for the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine. If so, Mykolaiv/Nikolayev would be among the targets, because there are the large shipyards that constructed the Soviet aircraft carriers. Ever since Peter the Great, Russian naval ambitions were connected to such suitable locations for launching fleets of capital ships. Russian naval importance is predicted to rise due to the ongoing improved navigatability of the North-East passage between East Asia and Europe. Canada is also investing into the control of their improving North-West passage due that is not as navigable as the Russian route. Since the 1980s the Northern Sea routes have been increasingly ice free, used for commercial navigation and I don't want to incite an argument about global warming.

The unfolding events create a template on how to wage war between states. The Ukrainian intelligence utterly failed or was accomplice, when tank equipped deep penetration forces entered the conflict zone and established a reduction in enemy mobility to launch any kind of countermeasures against the amassing regular forces. These deep penetration units seem to have acted as paramilitary forces that had both military and police functions. Showing no national insignia, allowed them to pose as locals. I presume that they did have integrated locals serving as intelligence and force amplifiers. There were some images showing quite young guys in a motley collection of Russian uniforms that looked rather like "militias". Unlike the Western way of war, a combination of airpower with special forces advisors on the ground was not employed. This Russian style intervention seems to be a tad cheaper in execution, but depends on proper elimination of enemy intelligence.
It seems unlikely to be executeable in the better organized Baltic nations or Poland. Penetration by paramilitary forces that also regulate the civilian society instead of special forces seems a new lesson learned.

The heartland theory of the 20th century that a union of Central Europe and Russian Eurasia (controlling Central Asia) could pose an overwhelming threat against British/Anglo-Saxon sea power gets a new twist by these events. In case of Europe, especially Germany, severing economic ties with Russia, the SCO inevitably sees a rise of economic interaction between its major participants, Russia and China. This creates a situation in which the feared alliance between resources and production in hostile constellation to the Anglo-Saxon sea powers takes increasingly shape. The Crimea push has a strong connection to the Russian naval ambitions of great power status. At the same time, China is going for naval ambitions as well and would benefit from improved Russian cooperation.

Short term, China and Russia have the capability to create a block that defies Western sanctions on one of their members as it is inconceivable that the Chinese market will be targeted, no matter how much they help to circumvent any sanctions on Russia. Supply routes along Russian controlled territory to Afghanistan will be in jeopardy. This helps the Afghanistan insurgents to focus their attacks on the remaining routes.

Mid term, the US presence in Central Asia with all the bloodshed in Afghanistan seems a waste of time and money, because the Chinese-Pakistani and Indo-Russian alliance are most likely to dictate terms there. Improved relations between Russia and China due to Western sanctions against Russia and the resulting economic integration within the SCO are likely to sweeten an end to the grudges between India and Pakistan. The more India and Pakistan and Russia and China stop to bicker with each other, the more of a say they have in global matters.

Long term, comes the day when there is more than one global blue water navy and wars are fought on the sea about trade routes and access to resources in deep sea mining. Russia needs the Black Sea installations for a maritime presence that competes on equal footing with other non-minor powers. Neither St. Petersburg, Murmansk nor Vladivostok offer themselves as alternative locations for a maritime industry of the 21st century. The anticipated exclusion of Russian influence from Ukraine by the EU forced their hand and this event will likely be remembered as one of the crucial daring moves that enabled Russia to continue being a bigwig in the resource business. Resource business equals oligarchs in power as they are the ones reaping the benefits from this kind of commerce.

Cui bono? (Who benefits?)
Russia gets Crimea at least, but is unlikely to stop there. Putin will salvage what he can from the eastern and southern part of the country. Ukrainian military resistance and a breakdown of their military efforts with mass desertions and treason in high ranks would all play into his hands and have likely been prepared for. Sending state of the art samples of military hardware to Ukraine likely equals sending them directly to Russia under these circumstances. The whole Crimea issue could only be created by an utter failure of the whole security structure of the Ukraine that must be ridden with moles and rats.
The EU gambled too high and loses valuable industrial parts of Ukraine to Russia.
Western Ukraine is most likely to become a staunch EU ally or even member. The EU wins another expansion out of the fangs of the bear, but gains not as much as they anticipated.
Russia makes the highest possible gains they can in the divide and conquer game in Ukraine due to their outstanding preparedness and audacity.
China stands on the sidelines and reapes profits by the increasing elimination of alliance alternatives for Russia and as the circumvention route for sanctions against Russia. I presume China to be the main benefitor among anyone in this game.
Diminishing the Chinese profits out of sanctions circumvention forces the EU and the USA to limit their sanctions. Anything that resembles a full blown trade war is a win-win for China that will not face sanctions for their acts.
The biggest loser is the Ukraine if more than the Crimea gets annexed by Russia.
If the situation stays limited to the peninsula, biggest loser will be Germany with economic connections falling prey to sanctions and countersanctions. This lose-lose situation is pretty obvious to the former an current German leadership and the reason why Germany runs a minimum damage course. Gysi is a brilliant speaker, but his socialist party is almost as excluded from politics as the German fascists.

Russia simply wins this round and can bring home as much of their latest conquest as they wish. If Russia takes more than they can economically uplift, than the EU and USA has a viable option for fostering dissent and an insurrection connected counterstrike. The game is not yet over as it remains to be seen if Russia will try to swallow and digest the whole of Ukraine in their triumph. Kiev is the ancient capital of the Kievan Rus. This is the place where Russian identity started and its center until the Mongol conquest. Russians have a hard time with Ukrainian nationhood. For Russians it is an as crazy idea as "Bejing claiming a national identity different from China" or "Washington D.C. declaring secession from the USA".
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
do you know what drives me nuts? The US,UK, even the Netherlands are not true democracy's yet just about everyone gets that wrong. They are True Democratic Republics'. The difference? In a true democracy everything is voted on and majority rule is absolute. The flaw? If 51% vote to kill 49% pray you were in the 51%.
The word Democracy is not found in the US Constitution. The correct term, which the US Constitution guarantees to the several states is simply stated as a Republic. It is a constitutional Republic.

Anyhow, the die is cast in the Crimea and the Ukraine.

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Wednesday, March 18th, Putin will announce to his Parliament that the people of Crimea, under duress and after being abused by the rest of Ukraine invited Russia to help, and then voted to become a part of Russia and that it is imperative for the Russian assembly to vote equally unanimously to annex Crimea according to their wishes. Then a vote will follow that does exactly that.

It will not matter to Putin or those Russian elected officials what Barack Obama or John Kerry say about it or drone on regarding it. Those two have done NOTHING to stop or deter a man like Putin. He understands one thing...force.

The only question now is whether the will be satisfied with just the one Province of the Ukraine.

Potential things the US could have done (or still could do):

1. Immediately begin sending C-17s into Kiev with military supplies, military advisors, military trainers, humanitarian supplies, and small security detachments to protect the same. Make it a river of C-17s, and ensure those aircraft are escorted into and out of Kiev and other major cities in the Ukraine at the invite of the Ukraine.

2. Immediately release all restrictions on the exploration, extraction, and production of natural gas and oil, and restrictions on its import to Europe. Sadly, this should have been done (and was in the process of being done) in 2008 as Bush left office...but Obama turned it all off. It will now take 3-5 years to be in a position to address Europe’s needs, but starting the process will send the message and impact the Ruble.

3. Take whatever financial means necessary to isolate the Ruble as a world currency.

Europe will never join with us in number 3, until they are sure we are serious about number 2. Putin will never believe we are truly serious about number 2, until we do something like number 1.

But Obama and Kerry will never do one and two and will try and start with number 3 which the Europeans will not join in with because of the issues associated with number 2. Putin has already figured this out, and so has acted with impunity.
 
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