2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Number 2 sounds sensible.
Number 1 is a waste of efforts, because the Ukrainian military seems as dysfunctional as their state.
Number 3 is pushing Germany on the brink of an economic crisis. It will only work if the US is finally willing to order military hardware from EADS and sign a no-spy contract with Germany. Forget natural gas exploitation in the USA, there's enough gas available in Europe and the Mediterranean to do this within the same timeframe.
Current situation with real economic sanctions is: "Hey Germany, little guy, you go and fight Russia on your own. Tell us, when you have won."(Reminds one of this brilliant commander Artemisia in 300 Rise of an Empire)
Germany is the one with half the economic connections with Russia. They decide whether this number 3 gets enacted or not and they are the ones, who will bleed economically for it. The NSA scandal destroyed much trust in the alliance with the USA. Germans feel like being farmed for information and ideas by the big brother on the other side of the pond. Forget sending gas, it needs the signature under a no-spy treaty. That is a major concern for the German public and EADS ousters from winning US contracts is a running joke for unfair treatments by the US. The US is quite lucky with Merkel being in power because she is far more pro-USA in her stances than the German population that elects.
The whole idea is to have trainers and advisors go in and help them. The Ukrain military actually performed well in its deployments to both Iraq and Afghanistan. They were never large (I believe at the peak they had 1,600 in Iraq) but they performed well just the same.

But, number two and three will never work until someone stands up and does something like number 1 to show Putin a real line in the sand has been drawn...and then has the fortitude to stand by it. That's why I say Obama and his ilk will never do it.

Number two is doable, but it will take 3-5 years.

Number 3 is also doable, but eh EU has to believe the US means number one and two first.

As long as that type of commitment and fortitude are not displayed, none of the others are going to mean a thing to someone like Putin.

I heard Obama at noon talk about the fact that Putin had croseed wht I now call Obama's and Kerry's "yellow line." He stated that he promised consequences and was speaking to announce them. He said the US was freezing assets and lowering the economic book on seven high level people in RUssia. He then said that if Putin continued...well, that the US would, "further tighten the economic noose on Ruussia."

Seriously? IMHO it's a pathetic joke.

Apparently, according to ABC News, one of the seven over in Russia promptly tweeted, "%!*# (Explicitive), Obama. So what? I have no assets in North America."

As I said...what is occurring now is no determent whatsoever to a leader like Putin.
 

Franklin

Captain
It seems that all the talk of Russia annexing Crimea has been primature. Russia now recognise Crimea as a sovereign nation. So the it is the Abchazia and South Ossetia model.

Russian President Putin recognises Crimea as nation

Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed a decree recognising Crimea as a "sovereign and independent state", officials say.

Sources said the decree would come into force immediately.

The move follows Sunday's referendum in Crimea in which officials said 97% of voters backed breaking away from Ukraine and joining Russia.

The EU and US earlier imposed sanctions on a number of officials from Russia and Ukraine over the vote.

The Russian presidential decree was issued "considering the expression of the will of the people of Crimea at the general Crimean referendum, which was held on 16 March 2014," the text of the decree said.

Earlier, the Crimean parliament declared independence from Ukraine and applied to join Russia.

More sanctions threatened

The referendum was called by the pro-Russian authorities in Crimea after the ousting of Ukraine's pro-Moscow President Viktor Yanukovych, who had sparked months of street protests by rejecting a planned EU trade deal in favour of closer ties with Moscow.

Pro-Russian forces have been in control of Crimea since late February. Moscow says the troops are self-defence forces and not under its direct control.

The EU, US and authorities in Kiev have rejected the referendum as illegal.

The EU and US earlier published separate lists of sanctions against both Russian and Ukrainian government officials and MPs.

"There are consequences for their actions" - Barack Obama on the sanctions

They included Crimea's acting leader Sergei Aksyonov speaker of parliament Vladimir Konstantinov.

The US list included Dmitry Rogozin, a Russian deputy prime minister, Valentina Matviyenko, head of the upper house of the Russian parliament and Mr Yanukovych.

US President Barack Obama said in a news conference that Washington stood "ready to impose further sanctions" depending on whether Russia escalated or de-escalated the situation in Ukraine.

But he also stressed there was still a path to solve the crisis diplomatically.
'Negative spiral'

EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said those singled out for travel and asset bans were responsible for threatening Ukraine's territorial integrity and independence.

But there was still time to avoid "a negative spiral" in the situation, she added, urging Russia to withdraw its forces from Crimea.

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said the US measures reflected a desire to impose its own unilateral, unbalanced approach.

Ukraine's acting President Oleksander Turchinov said Kiev was ready for negotiations with Russia, but it would never accept the annexation of Crimea.

In a televised address, Mr Turchinov said that any actions inciting mass disorder would be viewed as "abetting the military aggressor and a crime against the state".

The Kiev authorities earlier said they had recalled their ambassador to Moscow for consultation.

According to the vote in Crimea's parliament, Ukrainian laws now no longer apply in the region, and all Ukrainian state property belongs to an independent Crimea.

The peninsula will adopt the Russian currency, the rouble, and clocks will move two hours forward to Moscow time by the end of March.

The document approved by MPs also appealed to "all countries of the world" to recognise Crimean independence.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Kurt

Junior Member
What kind of 'uplift' can happen in Crimean economy when almost all the money they got was from tourism? Russia can sink some money there but they'll cut it down when something other will happen. They even get like 80% of dirinking water from 'mainland' Ukraine iirc...

A massive inflow of Russian tourists can uplift the Crimea. You need hotels with swimming pools, golf and wellness areas, lots of booze, discos and sex workers. Oligarchs can be ordered for patriotic reasons to build a massive number of well endorsed hotels. The economy can cater to the Russian demands of tourism events that often lead to conflicts with Western European tourists in more established areas such as Egypt. Tourism in Crimea could be much higher, using a patriotic marketing of this ancient tourist area and Russian tourists spend a lot more money per capita than Western tourists. Russia is only a poor country in official statistics. They still have about 50% black market economy of tax evasive payments to employees. After tax deduction, their official and black pay are on par with German employees after their tax payment (that is much higher) as Russians tell me. The Russian state uses tarifs on natural resources exploited by state enterprises instead of unpopular tax collections from the population. During the Yeltsin era tax evasion and black market economy was even more extreme. Economic growth of Russia shows the legal and legalized market and economic transactions, not the real state of affairs. In some regions of Russia, such as the Caucasus, official figures and real figures merge, because of rampant poverty, but this is on the fringes of the empire.
Ukraine similarly suffers from a black market and is not as poor as the official statistics tell you, but neither on the same netto income per capita level as Russia or Germany. They have about 25-33% real per capita income (on par with Czechs and Poles that also send sex workers abroad).

The whole idea is to have trainers and advisors go in and help them. The Ukrain military actually performed well in its deployments to both Iraq and Afghanistan. They were never large (I believe at the peak they had 1,600 in Iraq) but they performed well just the same.
Dysfunctional not in the sense of not knowing which end of a gun to point at an enemy, but dysfunctional as an organization that needs secure information transmission lines to plan operations and organize effective resistance against armed incursions. The Ukraine-Russia conflict is not exactly a conflict between two nations, but has lots of traits of a civil war. Such a conflict is very information intense and Russia simply proved to totally own Ukraine in this regard.

Number 3 is about economic sanctions against Russia. That is simply asking Germany to cut off from one of their most important economic partners while the NSA stays in the country and performs espionage on the German government and economic espionage on the German companies. You can have Bush, Reagan or whatever Republican in the White House. Number 3 is immediate political suicide for any German head of state and Germany is the only country that counts for enacting number 3. Making Germany do number 3 has a very high price and the US proved unwilling to pay it in recent negotiations. For Germans this was a very clear message on how little perceived value their alliance has for the USA. What the current German government currently agrees on with the Obama administration in measures against Russia is the utmost the US can expect and enact under any president. Jeff, you have simply no idea how pissed off people in Germany were after the Snowden revelations.
Imagine Germany sets up eavesdropping centers in every major American city, claims to be your ally and uses this eavesdropping to gain economic advantages over US companies. How long would it take for the US to rally against these "allies" and kick them out of the country?
The German leadership steered through this crisis with utmost skill and preserved the US alliance, but enacting number 3 at US instigation is unthinkable. Every ilk of US president must realize that the price for NSA eavesdropping on Germany is impotence in capability to impose real sanctions on Russia due to German unwillingness for economic self-mutilation in an alliance that does not mean that much to the USA.
 
Last edited:

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
It seems that all the talk of Russia annexing Crimea has been primature. Russia now recognise Crimea as a sovereign nation. So the it is the Abchazia and South Ossetia model.



Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

You are misinterpreting method for objective I think Franklin.

This is just an intermediate step to recognise the Crimea as a sovereign body which is legally entitled to choose its future. In this case as a part of the Russian Federation. The key point by the recognition is that the Crimea is no longer a part of the Ukraine and no Ukrainian military personnel or government personnel have any business being there.

Those that have no local connection will now have to leave, while others who were reluctant to defect while they were charged to defend the territory of the country of which the Crimea uses to be, will now have no qualms and become the Crimean Military etc.

It also means that Russia can discount claims about taking part of the Ukraine, as the Crimea has itself voluntarily devolved from that state and is applying to join the Russian Federation whilst in the condition of an independent republic.
 

delft

Brigadier
My Dutch newspaper doesn't doubt the numbers of voters and the result of the voting. It writes that many Ukrainian speakers in the Crimea voted for transfer to Russia because they wanted to leave the poorhouse Ukraine and that the pensions of the old people are to become 3 or 4 times as high.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
A massive inflow of Russian tourists can uplift the Crimea. You need hotels with swimming pools, golf and wellness areas, lots of booze, discos and sex workers. Oligarchs can be ordered for patriotic reasons to build a massive number of well endorsed hotels. The economy can cater to the Russian demands of tourism events that often lead to conflicts with Western European tourists in more established areas such as Egypt. Tourism in Crimea could be much higher, using a patriotic marketing of this ancient tourist area and Russian tourists spend a lot more money per capita than Western tourists. Russia is only a poor country in official statistics.
OMG! They vote in a referendom, join Russia Only to end up as The Russian Mafia's new Cash cow. The Russian Economic has improved but, This is a limited option at best. Old Las Vegas on the black sea. The Crimea would be come the STD capital of Europe.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
I thought all the MPs from the eastern region of Ukraine has been replaced before the official election was to take part right after Yanukovych left?

Err, who did you think ordered that they be replaced? Unless they were indicted, which I don't recall happening, they can't simply be replaced with other people. And even if you could, every constituency must still be represented.
 

delft

Brigadier
@ TerraN_EmpirE
Your rant contains a number of mistakes. Pork barreling is an old but living part of US politics and can't be in the interest of the represented people. UK and The Netherlands are not republics but monarchies and the UK doesn't have a constitution.
I know more about Dutch politics of course and an example of this is the building a railway line especially to improve the connection between the port of Rotterdam and Germany and countries further away. The government said that this line was to be built only if at least half were to be paid by private investors. No such investors appeared because the route followed would be pretty useless to the rest of the country and a good connection with Germany will now be realized within the next ten years or so, some twenty years after the "Betuwe lijn" was completed. If the line had been built some fifty km, 30 miles further South it could also have served the manufacturing industry there and it would have offered a cheap way to also connect Antwerp. With Belgium involved the connection with Germany would have been improved much earlier, but as the main reason for building the line was to give Rotterdam an increased advantage over Antwerp .....
So the theoretical advantage of republic/representative democracy/Western democracy or whatever name you prefer are seldom realized. They are somewhat less corrupt than Ukraine but by much less than I would want.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
It seems that all the talk of Russia annexing Crimea has been primature. Russia now recognise Crimea as a sovereign nation. So the it is the Abchazia and South Ossetia model.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Not necessarily preamture at all.

Recognizing the Crimea as a seperate state will be the first step necessary in annexing them.

Legally according to their own laws, Russia could not annex another area requesting it if that area was still legally recognized by RUssia as a part of he Ukraine.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
OMG! They vote in a referendom, join Russia Only to end up as The Russian Mafia's new Cash cow. The Russian Economic has improved but, This is a limited option at best. Old Las Vegas on the black sea. The Crimea would be come the STD capital of Europe.

You can summarize it like this.
For the important STD stuff a number of workers will come from poor parts of Russia and the former Soviet Union. That makes it easier to quell any access to legal measures against working conditions below Russian standards and Crimean autonomy under Russian protection helps with that. I doubt Crimea will be the best place for acquiring STD in Europe, but it will need prodigious amounts of cleaners of vomiting. Russians habitually try to outclass other nations in that regard. You have to understand the Eastern European mentality that puts a lot of emphasis on showing off how you are able to spend lots and lots of money in order to gain status. The Moscow Millionaire Fair has not been copied in other wealthy nations that lack the cultural context.
Tourism in the Persian Gulf is a template on how to exploit a foreign work force without legal protection, but in Crimea there will also be working natives reaping benefits. Crimea has an indigenious organized crime structure that will cooperate with different Russian cleptocrats. Ordinary Crimeans can make gains by the increased pensions from the Russian state and by the tendency of the current Russian state to inflate the number of state employees that are paid good benefits from the resource exploitation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top